D&D 5E (2024) D&D Classes without Subclasses?

[Silam]

maybe best way for a touch of BM via feat,

IE: homebrew
Battle master initiate:
+1 str or dex,
learn 2 maneuvers
gain 2 superiority dice, they are d6. regain them after short rest.

you can gain this feat multiple time.

Yeah, that’s a decent way to do it. Though if you keep walking down the path of featification you end up with:

Class that can take any class feature as feats.

Adventurer by /u/aeyana

Adventurer by /u/aeyana - Created with GM Binder.

www.gmbinder.com

… which, wow. That’s a fair bit of effort. I think this is overall a good direction, though I think making everything into a "feat" may end up hampering balance. A point-based system, where each ability costs differing amounts of points, might get closer to ideal balance, at the cost of complexity though, of course…

And it should be called out that the core rules are not necessarily that well balanced to begin with. Achieving roughly equivalent balance would be a good bar to reach for. In theory, it’s possible for this alternative system to be even better balanced than the core rules, though that would require quite a lot of effort.

 

[ART!]

Class that can take any class feature as feats.

Adventurer by /u/aeyana

Adventurer by /u/aeyana - Created with GM Binder.

www.gmbinder.com

This is an impressive piece of work - if anyone here has used this, please speak up about it.

 

[Silam]

I ran a game where everyone got 2 subclasses. It was... hilariously fun. I absolutely recommend trying it out at least once. It does raise the power level of the PCs, but that's easily accounted for on your side of the screen.

Anyone who picked Paladin only had to deal with a single set of tenets, to keep things simple.

Wow that is cool. Sounds like a watered down version of the 3.5 gestalt rules. Those were really fun, though they made character builds quite complicated, and forget about balance

 

[jmartkdr2]

One by one:

Artificers: you move all the subclass stuff to infusions. Works well enough for most but the armor infusion is either OP or level-locked to 10th or higher

Barbarian: you're all totem barbarians now, but with more totem options.

Bard: need more feats to cover the gaps

Cleric: this one's tough - you can have the individual god covered by things like spell selection but you need to either massively expand the spell list or grant ways to get non-cleric spells for theme. Also many more channel divinity options.

Druid: change wildshape to "channel nature" and allow it to summon spirits in addition to being used for wildshape

Fighter: this is either easy (make everyone a battlemaster and create maneuvers to fill all the gaps) or very, very hard (if you don't make everyone a battlemaster)

Monk: a little tougher - you need to add a Special Moves feature for customization

Paladin: honestly which oath barely matters mechanically already

Ranger: this class already severely lacks customization points, but having lots of "knacks" to choose from and gaining more as you level can help

Rogue: definitely need "skill feats" for this one.

Sorcerer: Yeah I don't think you can do this without subclasses.

Warlock: only if you restrict the class to spooky casters. Celestial warlocks are out.

Wizard: oh right they have subclasses. I rarely notice during actual play.

The recurring theme is you need to give each class a new customization point - if you want a genuinely different structure I suggest creating "class feats" for each class. I wouldn't have them all on the same progression a la PF2 but vary depending on what the class needs. With finesse you can replace subclasses form most classes, mostly.
Rogue:

 

[jmartkdr2]

I'm partially talking out of my butt, but having read a lot about the Paizo games in the past few months, but not having GM'd yet - isn't this kinda how Paizo does things? You just have a list of a bunch of feats per class and you grab whatever? I think the biggest problem (from what I've heard ppl complaining about) is that things then get so wild that people have paralysis of choice. And you have to start using things like Pathbuilder to help you create a character. I think it's also why they ahve things like Archetypes that seem to allow for what you guys are looking for.

It's not totally dissimilar, and blaot is an issue.

With PF2e, it's worth noting that 1) you still get subclasses they're just weaker 2) you also get ancestry feats, skill feats, and general feats on top of class feats and spells, so you're making multiple choices at each level - and to keep the game balanced that also eans a lot fo these choices aren't individually hugely impactful.

Assuming I'm not 100% wrong - it implies that it could be done, but would require a new version of D&D in order to make sure things work/are balanced correctly in terms of choices.

I think you could make it work by only replacing the classes, so it's only a 50% overhaul

 

[Silam]

I’m imagining a classless system which is based on points and skill trees.

Each class can be broken down into 2 or 3 skill trees, and one more tree per subclass.

Each level you gain 10 or 12 points (skill points, or ability points, or learning points, something like that, not sure what the best terminology is).

And then you can go to town investing these points into any ability from any tree you meet the prerequisites for. You should be able to replicate a regular class + subclass exactly if you spend the points in a certain way.

For example, maybe there is a "Martial Tree" which contains weapon masteries at the bottom, and Extra Attack higher up, with the prereq of having some weapon masteries and +3 proficiency bonus. This is a tree which many of the regular classes tap into.

There can be an alternative tree which has Martial Arts at the bottom and also provides Extra Attack higher up.

The fighter might have a Second Wind tree and a Action Surge tree, with abilities higher up which give more uses per day or extra effects or alternative effects when triggering SW or AS (just like the regular fighter abilities).

And then some trees could get "tangled" at higher levels. For example, maybe the fighter’s Second Extra Attack feature has prereqs including: Extra Attack from the Martial tree, Action Surge from the AS tree, and char level 11. And that explains why only the fighter gets this, since they’re the only ones to get Action Surge.

Likewise, the EK’s Arcane Charge can have both Action Surge and some level of magic ability as prereqs, representing another "tanged ability" which requires multiple trees.

It would be hard to balance, but could be very interesting…

 

[Peter BOSCO'S]

Another option might be for you to pick a single subclass for each class and just say "All Fighters are Champions, all Barbarians are Berserkers" etc. This would save you a lot of work and your players a lot of analysis paralysis but still simplify the game a bit.