What is "railroading" to you (as a player)?

[Micah Sweet]

That certainly helps! But things of course can be represented in different ways, not necessarily by acting, it can be also via evocative descriptions and other storytelling techniques. But yeah, if the GM cannot evoke genuine feeling in the players somehow, they will never be a very good GM. Like imagine watching a movie that did not evoke any feelings in you. What a drag.



Well, if they are it will certainly make that game more enjoyable to everyone. But the reason for asymmetry is the different knowledge sets of participants. The player probably knows more about their character than the GM of the NPC, meanwhile the GM knows massively more about all sort of things the NPC would not know about. Like the player can be genuinely misled by the NPC, but the same simply cannot happen in reverse.

Players and GM can both play characters with less knowledge than they have themselves.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Players and GM can both play characters with less knowledge than they have themselves.

Yes, but you cannot be genuinely tricked of something you actually know not to be true.

Like I have explained this to you dozen times: the player genuinely does not know whether the NPC is lying to them; the GM knows whether the PC is lying to the NPC.

 

[Bill Zebub]

This just reads as a one-sided demand that the GM be a charismatic actor type with solid social skills to accomplishing that sort of thing in the game, while the Player has no such requirement when interacting with NPCs.

I’ll tell you what: for a tongue-tied GM with no acting or entertaining or storytelling or social skills…THAT strawman GM should just roll dice and the players can respond to the dice.

The rest of us have better tools at our disposal. Even my 9 year old, in whom I can detect lies about brushing teeth and house chores pretty easily, is able to bluff and surprise me when he DMs.

 

[bsss]

I don't think it's remotely plausible that these "tools" are mutually exclusive, or one inherently better than the other.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes, but you cannot be genuinely tricked of something you actually know not to be true.

Like I have explained this to you dozen times: the player genuinely does not know whether the NPC is lying to them; the GM knows whether the PC is lying to the NPC.

I understand your point. I simply don't appreciate it's relevance in regards to play.

 

[bsss]

the player genuinely does not know whether the NPC is lying to them; the GM knows whether the PC is lying to the NPC.

This is the flaw of treating the PCs and NPCs symmetrically, because you are right, the GM knows whether or not the PC is "lying". However, what the GM may not know or chooses to leave up to the dice is how the NPC will respond to that lie. The information ratio is uneven, a good system accounts for those imbalances and creates plausible in-game results for everyone. That the GM can't be "tricked" is tangential.

 

[Bill Zebub]

This is the flaw of treating the PCs and NPCs symmetrically, because you are right, the GM knows whether or not the PC is "lying". However, what the GM may not know or chooses to leave up to the dice is how the NPC will respond to that lie. The information ratio is uneven, a good system accounts for those imbalances and creates plausible in-game results for everyone. That the GM can't be "tricked" is tangential.

Hmm....maybe. In my own experience, as a player I feel like I'm "there" in the story, making decisions as if I'm my character. When I'm GMing I feel more like a puppet master, holding strings. For me that is a totally different for decision-making.

Again, just my experience.

 

[Micah Sweet]

As I've said many times about many things, it's a spectrum, not a binary. Your hyperbolic straw man is not what I suggested, and I find it unconvincing as a reason for NPCs and PCs to behave differently when reacting to each other.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is the flaw of treating the PCs and NPCs symmetrically, because you are right, the GM knows whether or not the PC is "lying". However, what the GM may not know or chooses to leave up to the dice is how the NPC will respond to that lie. The information ratio is uneven, a good system accounts for those imbalances and creates plausible in-game results for everyone. That the GM can't be "tricked" is tangential.

A good system and a commitment to play your character, on either side of the screen, according to their knowledge, personality, capability, and circumstances.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Hmm....maybe. In my own experience, as a player I feel like I'm "there" in the story, making decisions as if I'm my character. When I'm GMing I feel more like a puppet master, holding strings. For me that is a totally different for decision-making.

Again, just my experience.

When I'm playing an NPC, I am doing so just as much in the moment as the Player is.