D&D 5E (2024) Epic Boons Ranking

[Upper_Krust]

As for this… I think the leveling approach gives greater flexibility. You can gain one level at a time, or gain several levels after having done truly epic deeds.

I agree it is more flexible.

But if current D&D went from Level 1-100 instead of 1-20, where the most powerful mortals were level 100 then players would have more flexibility in their builds - but at what point is flexibility more of a problem than a solution. Arguably 20 levels is that point. 4e went to 30th but things were far more rigid, classes more uniform.

Once everything gets more complex, it's harder to balance, more headaches for the designers and the Games Master. Challenge Rating already has issues.

For example, in some of our epic campaigns, we used to wipe entire armies of thousands + the high level generals leading those armies. With these kinds of massive encounters, it could happen that we earned more than one level at a time. So if the story calls for bigger jumps in power, it is still feasible.

Yes, my point is multiple incremental jumps in power add a complexity that is anathema to epic or immortal tier play where you want things to be as simple as possible.

At level 20 characters are already complicated enough that it starts to slow the game. That's why I advocate far fewer increases but each is much more meaningful than a mere 4, 3 or 2% jump in power which is just more book-keeping for little to no actual impact on play.

 

[Upper_Krust]

My concerns are 100% in the opposite direction: how to keep the stories personal even as characters become more powerful.

There are multiple ways to achieve this:

1. Give each epic/immortal character a 'Nemesis', a character that is their opposite in some way (alignment, class/divine Purview etc.). Then roll randomly each adventure which character's Nemesis will be indirectly or directly involved.

2. Give the immortal worshippers, then every now and then have an adventure directly involving the worshippers (where the immortal cannot directly intervene) which will impact the immortals power if events go badly.

3. Inter-Pantheon politics, can be a source of rivalry where its less antagonistic than a Nemesis, but can still be personal enough (rival gods of magic or war vying for positions of power) to be exciting.

I have less than zero interest in DMing a game of gods vs. gods or superhero PCs taking out armies. That's just not my taste.

It's not for everyone, but good to have that option on the table in such a ruleset.

So I like epic boons that will create awesome story moments, but not to the point that suddenly the characters think they are gods...not that gods are all that, in my campaign.

I think Epic Boons are a better (simpler) system (than adding more levels) if you just want to extend Epic Tier play for a limited duration.

Whereas the leap to Immortal tier play requires new ranks, features, powers, spells, monsters, etc.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Not dying of old age is longevity.

That's literal immortality.

Not dying at all is immortality.

If gods can kill other gods, no god is immortal by your definition of the word.

In scientific terms, "all cause mortality" includes not just heart attacks and liver failure and so on, but also car accidents, homicide, etc. By the RAW, a high level Monk is immune to the former, but not the latter … In my view, a god should not die from a car crash …

...you just gave me an idea for a cool Epic spell, thanks...and no its nothing to do with cars.

Maybe the distinction is debatable, but to me longevity and immortality are different concepts.

If gods can kill other gods then your definition of immortality does not exist anywhere.

Yeah, gods having avatars when they show up in the material plane is a well accepted trope… and them going back to their original plane if slain in that form (just like regular outsiders…) is fine.

The part about the Mythic Form being available as a fallback, but being mortal, can be an interesting mechanic I guess. I can totally see that working great in some specific setting where the DM carefully weaves the story around these concepts. With the right narrative it can land well. Though I think it’s slightly on the exotic side, and in some cosmologies it may feel a bit out of place…

In 1st Edition (for example) you could only permanently slay a god on their home plane (where they were more powerful and had double hit points).

I have taken that and put a twist on it, each god gets two 'set's of hit points, their Physical Form and Mythic Form. When and where the god chooses to stand and fight (and potentially die) in Mythic Form is now up to them.

Player Characters also have that flexibility. If their Physical Form is slain do they play it safe and just go back to their Divine Realm OR do they throw caution to the wind, stay in the fight, put their literal immortality on the line and create legends.

I guess it would depend a lot on the details… how "mortal" is the Mythic Form really? If it’s squishy (by godly standards) that would probably take away a bit of credibility and immersion for me personally. If it’s nearly immortal in Mythic Form then maybe it’s not a big deal, but then IDK if having the mechanic at all is that useful?

Mythic Form is basically the immortal back to full power plus it gets access to its Mythic Boon - a higher tier of Divine Boon. Some mythic boons are changes in Physical Form (Hephaestus turns his body to Adamantine), others are not, Ra has a Force Field that radiates Anti-Magic that does not affect his spells/magic, Thor's Warrior Madness grants him Action Surge at will (but cannot distinguish friend from foe), etc. The book has 500+ Boons from Tiers 1-11; where Tier 1 = an Epic Boon, Cthulhu might have a Tier 5 boon or two, so the Tier 7+ stuff gets crazy).

Anyhow… it doesn’t really matter. As long as some folks get value out of it, then it’s great to have that content out there and available! It certainly should not be a goal to please me specifically …

Well I guess I am trying to convince you specifically Silam because I see your position as identical to mine 20 years ago - when I released the Immortals Handbook Epic Bestiary and Ascension books for 3rd Edition which built upon the Epic Level Handbook and had infinite levelling for Epic PCs - which at the time I believed was the holy grail for epic play.

But it was after years of working on those rules that, from a designer standpoint I started to realise it was just needless complexity for its own sake, it did not help facilitate fun, accessibility, nor balanced Epic/Immortal play - the complexity worked in opposition to those things.

My new approach with 5e Immortals rules is cleaner, simpler, far more accessible, super easy to balance. Yet still has a TON of options:

30 Divine Rank Templates - ie. Immortal 'Levels'
37 Immortal Purviews - ie. Immortal Classes (God of War, God of Time, God of Beer etc.)
500+ Boons - ie. Immortal Class Features.

BUT the simplicity comes in limiting the number of Boons a given immortal can take to very few, most gods will only have 1, 2 or 3. You don't get one every rank but you can swap all boons each time you gain a new Rank: access more powerful boons, try new builds etc. That's where the flexibility lies.

If you go through the original AD&D Deities & Demigods, immortals had very few unique powers but each power was typically significant, rarely trivial. War gods might never miss, Gods of Magic might cast multiple spells each turn, etc.

Anyway, I'll stop trying to convince you buddy, thanks for your time.

 

[Silam]

That's literal immortality.

If gods can kill other gods, no god is immortal by your definition of the word.

For what it’s worth, I agree that my own arguments aren’t very convincing …

I guess this discussion is circling around the enigma of the ray of absolute disintegration getting flung at the impenetrable barrier.

Gods are about superlatives taken to the extreme. Omniscient, omnipotent, immortal, etc… and yet, these absolute abilities only really work in a monotheistic faith (to each their own, but it’s not my cup of tea).

In a more traditional polytheistic and even polypantheonic setting, then of course most of these absolute abilities cannot in fact live up to the hype in the marketing material. You can’t have two gods, one of which has the power of life and death over all beings, and the other which has the power of immortality. At least one (but likely both) of these must have a limit to their power, in order to solve the inherent contradiction in the interaction of their powers.

That is where your idea of divine ranks is a useful construct. It provides fine prints: Immortality [from lower ranks], Power of life and death [over creatures of lower ranks], etc.

If gods can kill other gods then your definition of immortality does not exist anywhere.

Indeed. Immortality graded on a curve, perhaps?

Well I guess I am trying to convince you specifically Silam because I see your position as identical to mine 20 years ago -

Well, last time I played the epic campaigns I hinted at in the thread was in 3.5e about 15 years ago. So perhaps I am just 5 years away from the epiphany you’re experiencing now

Personally, I lean a bit more towards @Clint_L’s take… with the minor difference that I don’t mind wiping out an army once in a while, but for the most part, I’m not actually interested in playing divine politics.

To me, epic levels are the equivalent of Civilization games’ One More Turn where you just keep going a bit more even though there isn’t really a point anymore. The victory condition is already gotten. Maybe you try to stack some other different victory condition on top just for the heck of it. But I’m not really looking for dramatic power ups that make my already epic character seem like it was actually weak all along until it awoke the Rinnegan. The 2-3-4% increase in power is actually a feature, not a bug: it provides a feeling of continuity, a possibility of elongating the fun just a little more, without actually destroying the flavor of the character & party that makes us want to play them a little more in the first place.

But in any case… I’m a fan of options. It’s good for options to be available, and not everybody needs to flip on every switch in the cockpit. But those who want to lay on on the dashboard and roll on it until every little button is lit up like a Christmas tree, I say to them: you go right ahead my good sir. May you break through Mach 10 like Tom Cruise in the F35

 

[Upper_Krust]

For what it’s worth, I agree that my own arguments aren’t very convincing …

I guess this discussion is circling around the enigma of the ray of absolute disintegration getting flung at the impenetrable barrier.

Gods are about superlatives taken to the extreme. Omniscient, omnipotent, immortal, etc… and yet, these absolute abilities only really work in a monotheistic faith (to each their own, but it’s not my cup of tea).

Largely hyperbole. Though I suppose you could be all-powerful within a Demiplane, a Plane, a Universe, the Multiverse etc.

In a more traditional polytheistic and even polypantheonic setting, then of course most of these absolute abilities cannot in fact live up to the hype in the marketing material. You can’t have two gods, one of which has the power of life and death over all beings, and the other which has the power of immortality. At least one (but likely both) of these must have a limit to their power, in order to solve the inherent contradiction in the interaction of their powers.

We can sort out all those contradictions amongst the 10-dimensional Platonic "Conceptuals" but you don't get to those until you can defeat the Supreme Being of the 9th-dimension...the Games Master themselves.

That is where your idea of divine ranks is a useful construct. It provides fine prints: Immortality [from lower ranks], Power of life and death [over creatures of lower ranks], etc.

You don't even need to appeal to the ranks themselves when you have standardised Hit Dice and Hit Points. 5e seems robust enough to, with a few tweaks, work at any level of power.

Indeed. Immortality graded on a curve, perhaps?

Possibly but self defeating when we can just say Thor has 2200 hit points and a Damage Threshold 36.

You don't need a "only immortals can hurt immortals, only Great Old Ones can hurt Great Old Ones etc."

Well, last time I played the epic campaigns I hinted at in the thread was in 3.5e about 15 years ago. So perhaps I am just 5 years away from the epiphany you’re experiencing now

Personally, I lean a bit more towards @Clint_L’s take… with the minor difference that I don’t mind wiping out an army once in a while, but for the most part, I’m not actually interested in playing divine politics.

That's mostly for longer form Immortal Campaigns, not lets just do another Adventure with these characters.

To me, epic levels are the equivalent of Civilization games’ One More Turn where you just keep going a bit more even though there isn’t really a point anymore. The victory condition is already gotten. Maybe you try to stack some other different victory condition on top just for the heck of it. But I’m not really looking for dramatic power ups that make my already epic character seem like it was actually weak all along until it awoke the Rinnegan.

Players have to want to become gods, with great power comes great responsibility.

The 2-3-4% increase in power is actually a feature, not a bug: it provides a feeling of continuity, a possibility of elongating the fun just a little more, without actually destroying the flavor of the character & party that makes us want to play them a little more in the first place.

I agree its a feature of maintaining the status quo just a bit longer. But why then would you need an Epic Level Handbook when the 5e Epic Boons do that already.

The likely truth is that people don't always know what they want until you give it to them. Before the Epic Level Handbook how many people really considered epic play.

But in any case… I’m a fan of options. It’s good for options to be available, and not everybody needs to flip on every switch in the cockpit. But those who want to lay on on the dashboard and roll on it until every little button is lit up like a Christmas tree, I say to them: you go right ahead my good sir. May you break through Mach 10 like Tom Cruise in the F35

One of the Quotations in the book is "I feel the need...the need for Speed" Pete 'Maverick' Mitchell. Which precedes the Godspeed Boons where you can go full Ultra-Instinct Goku...and more.

Thanks for the well wishes Silam. Best of luck to you too.