D&D 5E (2014) Do You Start At Level 1?

[AlViking]

this is THE key problem.
roleplay can good or bad, depending on group and you, at any level, that is what you make of it.

But, mechanically, low level characters are simply boring as hell.

Maybe wizard should know 10 1st level spells and have 10 1st level slots and 10 cantrips. you would probably still default to 2-3 cantrips and 2-3 1st level spells most of the time, but it's fun and interesting to have contingencies.

maybe every martial, depending on class could know 3-5 maneuvers and have 5-10 maneuver dice right from the gate.

That would make combat interesting.

I find playing characters that have fewer options to overcome obstacles with spells or class features to be more interesting because you have to think outside the box more often. Your "problem" is my "feature".

 

[tetrasodium]

I dont mind the early levels as I usually need a little time to bring my character to life. Though, reading some of these posts I could certainly change that opinion if I was spending 4-5 sessions at level1!

Level 1 is a bit different. Less "roll initiative -> [hack and slash], more "[here is a problem], use your imagination together to call upon skills and strengths that you may of may not have" along with establishing ties to the world.

Instead of "oh I bought a bear trap and some meat" to deal with the wolf problem, come up with a solution and NPCs might give you stuff you need/want instead of just coin

Kill rats in the basement was never safe, it either involved creativity or serious risk

 

[Reynard]

Level 1 is a bit different. Less "roll initiative -> [hack and slash], more "[here is a problem], use your imagination together to call upon skills and strengths that you may of may not have" along with establishing ties to the world.

Instead of "oh I bought a bear trap and some meat" to deal with the wolf problem, come up with a solution and NPCs might give you stuff you need/want instead of just coin

Kill rats in the basement was never safe, it either involved creativity or serious risk

I know this is the theory, but I think in most folks experiences at "level 1" just mean fewer options within the same D&D play loop that exists at essentially every level (now that domain management is not a thing). The rats are an appropriate challenge. So are the wolves later, and then the hill giants, and finally the dragons.

 

[tetrasodium]

I know this is the theory, but I think in most folks experiences at "level 1" just mean fewer options within the same D&D play loop that exists at essentially every level (now that domain management is not a thing). The rats are an appropriate challenge. So are the wolves later, and then the hill giants, and finally the dragons.

It's much broader than domains, those were a higher level thing too. You are kind of complaining about a more foundational problem that wotc created with 5e's simplification of the skills system.

Prior to 3.x there wasn't really a skill system (more of a shell hinting at one) and the system itself was so different on so many levels. In 3.x even a level 1 fighter or barbarian had (2+int mod)*4 skill points to assign across 7 of the 36 skills then 2+int mod/level from there on. Iirc a point at level 1 in a class skill gave 5 ranks and cross class skills could be obtained for 2 points per rank. Toss in things like GM's best friend+bonus types along with the general usefulness of a few ranks in a bunch of skills and it was not at all uncommon to see level 2+ skill selection start looking very different from L1 from skill points alone.

5e shifted to do everything skills while making the choice pretty much a one & done thing so now players MUST choose the most optimal skills or waste the choice. Even worse is that they took away the rules support that once enabled creative problem solving as a team in favor of a casual push button for success dc ladder that makes solo failure difficult and anything much beyond "oh I help with that/cast guidance" pointless so the gm needs to learn the skills from past editions and try somehow beating it on across the screen

 

[payn]

Level 1 is a bit different. Less "roll initiative -> [hack and slash], more "[here is a problem], use your imagination together to call upon skills and strengths that you may of may not have" along with establishing ties to the world.

Instead of "oh I bought a bear trap and some meat" to deal with the wolf problem, come up with a solution and NPCs might give you stuff you need/want instead of just coin

Kill rats in the basement was never safe, it either involved creativity or serious risk

Well, if the idea is to stretch first level out as many sessions as possible to promote skill play, then id just recommend playing something that isnt 5E that leans into skill play instead.

I know this is the theory, but I think in most folks experiences at "level 1" just mean fewer options within the same D&D play loop that exists at essentially every level (now that domain management is not a thing). The rats are an appropriate challenge. So are the wolves later, and then the hill giants, and finally the dragons.

This is what I had in mind.

It's much broader than domains, those were a higher level thing too. You are kind of complaining about a more foundational problem that wotc created with 5e's simplification of the skills system.

Prior to 3.x there wasn't really a skill system (more of a shell hinting at one) and the system itself was so different on so many levels. In 3.x even a level 1 fighter or barbarian had (2+int mod)*4 skill points to assign across 7 of the 36 skills then 2+int mod/level from there on. Iirc a point at level 1 in a class skill gave 5 ranks and cross class skills could be obtained for 2 points per rank. Toss in things like GM's best friend+bonus types along with the general usefulness of a few ranks in a bunch of skills and it was not at all uncommon to see level 2+ skill selection start looking very different from L1 from skill points alone.

5e shifted to do everything skills while making the choice pretty much a one & done thing so now players MUST choose the most optimal skills or waste the choice. Even worse is that they took away the rules support that once enabled creative problem solving as a team in favor of a casual push button for success dc ladder that makes solo failure difficult and anything much beyond "oh I help with that/cast guidance" pointless so the gm needs to learn the skills from past editions and try somehow beating it on across the screen

I definitely dont like the Ronco "set it and forget" skill system of 5E. I dont think it precludes skill play on its own though. I think skill play being out of fashion with D&D is a higher culprit.

 

[AlViking]

I know this is the theory, but I think in most folks experiences at "level 1" just mean fewer options within the same D&D play loop that exists at essentially every level (now that domain management is not a thing). The rats are an appropriate challenge. So are the wolves later, and then the hill giants, and finally the dragons.

Depends on the group and game. Ones I've run it's just as challenging, just in a different way

 

[tetrasodium]

Well, if the idea is to stretch first level out as many sessions as possible to promote skill play, then id just recommend playing something that isnt 5E that leans into skill play instead.

This is what I had in mind.

I definitely dont like the Ronco "set it and forget" skill system of 5E. I dont think it precludes skill play on its own though. I think skill play being out of fashion with D&D is a higher culprit.

There is risk &combat too, sometimes as part of the plans. Its just not mindless combat. Quoting the ad&d dmgpg120 "A potion of healing is a fairly necessary item, something the DM may want to be readily available to the characters. Therefore, it should be cheap..". They can be given out by NPCs and found as the treasure too.

I've never had players complain about it because they have fun
And their pcs stuff lol have needs they are working towards

 

[TwoSix]

I've seen a few obnoxious builds, hell, anything Paladin/Warlock is just asinine to me. I just feel it runs counter to what the edition was looking to do.

On the other end, I feel like its exactly what 3/PF1 WANTED to be doing, so just lean into it and let players go wild, if that makes sense.

My sorcerer 1/cleric 1/paladin 1/bard 1/rogue 1/druid 1/ranger 1/wizard 1 strenously objects to the idea he's obnoxious.

 

[Scribe]

My sorcerer 1/cleric 1/paladin 1/bard 1/rogue 1/druid 1/ranger 1/wizard 1 strenously objects to the idea he's obnoxious.

 

[Reynard]

My sorcerer 1/cleric 1/paladin 1/bard 1/rogue 1/druid 1/ranger 1/wizard 1 strenously objects to the idea he's obnoxious.