D&D 5E (2014) Let's Talk About Guns in 5E

[Indagare Nogitsune]

Even so, the best Eberron does is create a world where magic replicated turn of the century technology. The ability to move heavy vehicles across wide areas quickly is possible with magic and the best Eberron sought to do was make a train. It's a functional limitation of our imagination (commonly called versimulitude) that we tend to believe stuff that feels close to what we know. The farther you go from that, the less "believable" it becomes.

I'm not entirely sure on that. At least, if one goes into scifi settings it seems there's a willingness to extend things a bit more (teleporters, wormholes, FTL, etc.) But there's definitely a lot of suspension of disbelief to allow dragons to exist and not cause troubles in ways folks are generally unwilling to explore. Eberron simply doesn't go that far because the designer didn't want to.

As such, we want a world where things look similar to what we know and will gladly ignore the cognitive dissonance that layering fantasy on top would produce. It's why dragon's don't ruin the local economy and ecology with their hoarding and diet, people still insist on burying the dead in a world where necromancers roam, and where a torch even exists when the light cantrip is available and continual lights are a thing. And it's why a magical bloodline focused on speed and teleportation would use that power to... Build a train. Because we want the world to still look like ours.

I mean, there could have been permanent teleportation circles for even better effect. However, trains can be very cool and can go extremely fast (the current non-prototype being SNCF TGV POS Set No. 4402 at 574.8 km/h [357 mph]). Planes can go even faster.

I'm just not sure how far we really need a world to look like ours overall. We've got a lot of concepts available to us. We do, I think, need things to at least make sense to us and have interactions that feel real.

If guns are limited in damage, range, rate of fire, and effectiveness, they can be used in a D&D type setting. (e.g. No AR-15's in D&D, please)

However, I personally don't care for guns in a medieval-type setting.

For those who like mixing magic and technology, I recommend StarFinder.

I mean, they already are in real life even if the AR-15's 1500 ft. to 1800 ft. range is well past any spell's and would definitely break things.

 

[SkidAce]

I don't like guns in my default D&D fantasy mostly for immersive reasons, and expectation of genre.

I continue to say that guns add a strong flavour to a setting however, and disproportionally impose their own genre over other categories of weapon.

Personally, I find it much easier to envision loss of hp as "turning a lethal blow into a lesser one" with melee combat or with make-believe spells and magical effects, than with gun bullets. The former are easier to romanticize, the latter is too familiar.

Well said, and this is one of the best explanations of the "feel" that I have heard.

(I still allow single use goblin guns, and gif weapons, but thats about it.)

 

[Remathilis]

I'm not entirely sure on that. At least, if one goes into scifi settings it seems there's a willingness to extend things a bit more (teleporters, wormholes, FTL, etc.) But there's definitely a lot of suspension of disbelief to allow dragons to exist and not cause troubles in ways folks are generally unwilling to explore. Eberron simply doesn't go that far because the designer didn't want to.

Correct in that if you go to far into speculative fiction, you end up in sci-fi with Asimov's "suitably advanced technology"

Eberron wanted a world that felt like the turn of the century but with magical equivalents, it started with trains and worked backwards to get them. It didn't look at the 3e rules and say "what is the logical conclusion of this type of magical world?" (That's not to say it doesn't ask that question in places, but it's far too concerned at getting a specific answer when it comes to replicating the pulp noir flavor).

I mean, there could have been permanent teleportation circles for even better effect. However, trains can be very cool and can go extremely fast (the current non-prototype being SNCF TGV POS Set No. 4402 at 574.8 km/h [357 mph]). Planes can go even faster.

I'm just not sure how far we really need a world to look like ours overall. We've got a lot of concepts available to us. We do, I think, need things to at least make sense to us and have interactions that feel real..

In fairness, you can only reinvent the wheel so many times. I recall the time silicone valley attempted to fix the issue with traffic congestion and inadvertently reinvented the bus.

 

[SkidAce]

i understand all of that. i would probably implement those as magic weapons or something similar if i wanted to include them in my games. i'm not thinking of post-civil war because of repeating firearms - i'm thinking of them because of widespread rifling, self-contained cartridges, and (within a couple decades) smokeless powder and spitzer rounds. yes, rifling and self-contained cartridges existed before that period, but they were mostly exceptional (i know most muskets in the us civil war were rifled - this was a very modern innovation at the time). and yes, smokeless powder and spitzer rounds came out a little later then just "right after the us civil war", but it's a widely known enough event that i found it the easiest marker to use.

all these put together, you get extremely accurate and quite powerful shoulder fired weaponry. far more accurate then any bow or crossbow. THAT is the feeling i want to capture without actually making them mechanically overpowered. i've considered a few different ways to do it - exploding damage dice, different form of range calculations akin to 3e style ranged weapons - but i'm not sure i've settled on anything i've liked a lot.

also, before you ask, yes, most of this doesn't apply to shotguns so they'd probably end up being an exception. that's fine.

one idea some friends and I brainstormed was "guns start with advantage to hit". You may say thats crazy....but...

It emulates ease of training and use.
It adds to average DPR without special dice sizes for guns.
It can be negated by situation/circumstances.

"Done"

 

[SkidAce]

Guns in Fantasy not without precedent...

 

[SkidAce]

My only issue with modern firearms in D&D is the volume of fire someone can deliver in a 6 second round. I can dump 30 bullets easily and accurately into a target at 7-10 meters in 6 seconds with a “standard issued” semi-automatic assault rifle. Don’t get me started on full-auto weapons, where it can be up to hundreds of rounds in a minute. I don’t advocate for simulating reality in a TTRPG, but I can’t in good faith simply ignore this, because it is the biggest advantage modern firearms bring to a fight.

So the question then becomes how to adjudicate a high volume of fire without ruining the fantasy of being able to fill a mutant crab full of lead?

NON-modern fire arms.

My goblins have one shot pistols. Some clever humans are trying to retro design them and figure out the formula for pyroglycerin crystals the goblins use. Some success, some fatal accidents.

 

[Indagare Nogitsune]

Correct in that if you go to far into speculative fiction, you end up in sci-fi with Asimov's "suitably advanced technology"

In even less serious science areas you end up with freeze rays and humanoid pterodactyls that can turn people into dinosaurs.

Eberron wanted a world that felt like the turn of the century but with magical equivalents, it started with trains and worked backwards to get them. It didn't look at the 3e rules and say "what is the logical conclusion of this type of magical world?" (That's not to say it doesn't ask that question in places, but it's far too concerned at getting a specific answer when it comes to replicating the pulp noir flavor).

There's really nothing wrong with wanting a specific feel to a setting (which is why I think that the inclusion of firearms needs to be appropriate for that rather than what's actually historically possible). I do think we need more 5e settings with different flavors to them than Ye Olde Middle Ages.

In fairness, you can only reinvent the wheel so many times. I recall the time silicone valley attempted to fix the issue with traffic congestion and inadvertently reinvented the bus.

I mean, yeah. We've got airships and starships because even though they don't really look like ships, the concept of ships taking one distant places is far longer in human experience than something like an airplane.

 

[Remathilis]

NON-modern fire arms.

My goblins have one shot pistols.

I think that's a fair distinction to keep in mind. All the firearms I've ever seen in D&D are typically single shot or very rarely six shooters. I think by the time you get to the machine gun, you've moved suitability into the modern era.

 

[Reynard]

Correct in that if you go to far into speculative fiction, you end up in sci-fi with Asimov's "suitably advanced technology"

For shame.

 

[James Gasik]

In even less serious science areas you end up with freeze rays and humanoid pterodactyls that can turn people into dinosaurs.

But with science like that, you could cure cancer!