D&D General I’m Trying to Love D&D Again—and I’ve Got Some Complaints. Young Grognard posting.

[dave2008]

My apologies but your post was too long for me to fully engage with. However, regarding homebrew, it is very much still a D&D thing. In fact, IMO, homebrew and 3PP has exploded with 5e. There is so much available with Kickstarter, DMsGuild, and Reddit. Obviously I don't know how much of it is being used - but there sure is a lot of it available!

Personally, we only ever play D&D with some amount of rules homebrew and out setting is homebrew as well. I will echo another poster and guess that some of difficulty you are experiencing with using 3PP stuff is the online nature of your gaming. I only play in person and have not had an issue with 3PP and homebrew content.

 

[dave2008]

PS - This a bit of an odd first post!

 

[Belen]

Here are some additional answers:

3pp content: If the DM does not own the content, then it is difficult to review and add it to the game. If using DDB, the process for adding new content via homebrew is also time-consuming. It almost always means that the DM is stuck with more work. This is the main reason that I would avoid some 3pp content is playing online using DDB and why a lot of people avoid content until it is added to DDB. It is less work in a physical game where you have paper sheets and can easily see someone's book. Personally, I tell people what content I allow at the start of the game. I do not use a lot of 3pp content right now because I just do not want the hassle and there is plenty of content in DDB for any player to find something that will work. If not, then I guess they continue hunting for a game that fits them.

Homebrew: I homebrew exclusively. I dislike using official settings. Period. I just have issues making them my own.

Gaming & Politics: I have a no politics rule at my table. I did not always have to have this rule; however, social media over the last decade have ruined people's ability to socially interact and/or compromise. They no longer talk to each other. They talk at each other and do not attempt to engage past the surface level. With politics, it's like they no longer see folks with opposing viewpoints as human. This means that I do not allow politics at my table. If someone cannot hang up their tribal political BS for the duration of the session, then they can find another group. I play D&D, in part, to get away from the real world. I have to deal with politics too much in other parts of my life that I do not want to deal with it when I am playing a fantasy game with friends. Yes, I have had friends who cannot abide by that rule and I have had to ask them to find another table. It is toxic behavior.

Player behavior: The vast majority of players do not prepare ahead of time or read or even remember the last session. It has always been this way. It's why I argue so much with the crowd that says that a player's fun outweighs the DM's fun. Sorry, but if someone does most of the work carrying the game, then they get some say in things. If a player does show up and helps do the work, then the player gets more input.

Play style: There are plenty of groups still playing using old school styles and versions of the game to support them. I have knownm DMs that find it very difficult to not run a story-focused game. It is a skill and since a lot of DMs are new, since 5e, many just do not have the experience or skill yet to avoid the story-based railroads.

 

[billd91]

I'm likely going to ruffle some feathers on this one. Why are so many games just posting the alphabet spellcasting all over them? I know the way I said that was a bit rude, but I don't understand it. We're here to play as elves, paladins, dragonborn ect. Who you wanna have sex with and what you are is the last thing on my mind. I've tried running a game few times (I burned out... I just can't DM) every time I look for players I'm blown away with some of the people I get! I have three questions I put upfront before just chatting with the potential players to see if they're a good fit. It used to be two but I had to start asking "Hey I want my table to be a safe place for everyone, are you able to remove modern politics and hang-ups at the door when you sit down at my virtual table?" The amount of times I've had people have a crash out on that stating anyone who disagrees with them or is even remotely right wing isn't a human being and worthy of death is over 10. I've never seen it the other way. I've played with gay guys and they're some of my favorite to play with, dudes are funny. This posting the alphabet on a game causes me to hesitate on even looking at a game because to me it should be something that is a default and not even asked. "Be cool to everyone". Having it on the post makes me think of the people who screamed at me for just asking "IF" they could play nice with everyone...

Should be a default that everyone can sit at any table (literally and metaphorically) and be treated with respect - but the reality too often is it's not the default and people, using the weight of governments they control, are pushing back against making it the default every day. You just have to watch a news website long enough and you'll see people culture warring against that very idea. So that's why people post about LGBTQ+ being welcome and respected. They're doing what they can to actively make it the default that everyone should be cool to each other.
It's very easy to say "no politics at the table" when you're not the one fighting to live your life in the most authentic way you can. So please understand that it's hard for someone who is doing so to sit peacefully at a table with people who deny them that very right.

 

[Morrus]

Homebrew: I homebrew elusively.

Like... in secret?

 

[Remathilis]

I'm likely going to ruffle some feathers on this one. Why are so many games just posting the alphabet spellcasting all over them? I know the way I said that was a bit rude, but I don't understand it. We're here to play as elves, paladins, dragonborn ect. Who you wanna have sex with and what you are is the last thing on my mind

I'm going to assume this ALSO extends to heteronormative relationships as well? You don't allow PCs to flirt with the barmaid, hire a call girl, or marry their childhood sweetheart? No succubi, nymphs or satyrs using their magic to entice mortals info debauchery? Absolutely no bards rolling to seduce anything (and I mean any thing). Right?

I'm here to play an elf or paladin, not watch you try to score with imaginary NPCs. Keep it in your pants and wear some practical clothes, barbarian!

 

[KnightofCaliban]

I’ve been in the hobby since 1977-78. I’ve played in over 100 different systems.

All I can say about the aversion to 3PP stuff is most prevalent in the D&D community IME. Part of that is because D&D is the origin of the hobby, and as such, there’s probably been more 3PP products made for it (across editions) than for any other game. Possibly more than all of the rest of the market combined.

A lot of it- especially before the OGL- was unbalanced, overpowered, and some was quite odd to be frank. And if you were like me- someone who moved a lot- you’d see a lot of players try to bring their own PCs from previous tables to new ones. Invariably, that meant some spell, item or other entry on their character sheet was unheard of…and probably pretty über.

So that distrust of 3PP in D&D has old roots.

Even with games of similar age, like Traveller, you really don’t see anything like that.

This has been interesting. I've heard bits of how the 3~3.5 era stuff was wild for third party. I've never looked at 3E directly but I have looked at Pathfinder. With the incredibly modular nature I can see how it would be easy to make stuff that plug in. Becoming a nightmare to think on allowing as X option + Y class could quickly get out of hand and is hard to sit down and look at how to keep the idea of the option intact without it becoming a problem.

I'm going to guess that this is your issue since nothing you posted remotely resembles my experience with DnD 5e or 5.5e, but I've only ever played in person. Finding in-person groups is extremely hard (even in a city) so I can understand playing online but I'd rather have no DnD than bad DnD

Side question: what is "posting the alphabet"? Is that some new version of complaining about everything being "Woke"?

Yeah...Online is my only option being in a town of 4,000 with the nearest walmart being a 2 hour drive. I just don't have the option to play in person as the interest isn't here, I've tried. It's rough enough to get some of the guys who have kids and wives to make time for a warhammer game. On your side question it's posting stuff like "Game is MMIWG2SLGBTQQIA+ friendly" in the title or body of the LFG post. Not a complaint about people being at the game but if a game had "This game is x Friendly" where X could be White, Arab, Islam, Christian ect... I think that's weird and with my experience not a welcoming space if your not in a type of lockstep. r/LFG and StartPlaying have it in about 33~40% of posts.

Welcome to the forum!

Thank you! I've heard about it for years but always in a negative tone. I haven't looked around to much yet but everyone responding to me has been pretty nice.

If they have 5 players bringing them 3pp player-material (because if it is done once the floodgates for such become open) then they may feel the need to vet this new material to see if is compatible and balanced for the game they are running. Some DMs just do not have the headspace for that and thus feel more comfortable to be the ones in control of bringing new material into the game (this includes homebrew rules etc).

I do get that. It's just a weird frustration. I've heard forever on "The DM buys everything" and in an instance where a player is buying stuff it's thrown in the trash. I do understand in the sense of fairness what's offered to one is offered to all. But with how ridged 5e's design is it should ben that hard to look at a thing, gauge it's power, offer changes, shut it down or accept it. It's a huge reason why I have a huge hatred of Multiclass. Every instance of it I've seen has either been a player using it in an end for a crazy strong character or for roleplay reason that have made the character far weaker then the rest of the group. I look at systems like PF2 with 27 different classes and think that the multiclass system is the thing that makes asking for something similar in 5e impossible even with the game being more strict.

Mecheon thank you for so much insight!~
Yeah it was a frustrated spew of a bunch of stuff. Just had to get it out as I haven't said this to anyone and just need answers and to know if I should even be trying to play games anymore. I didn't really think on that Dragonlance started the trend. What I've always wanted was something somewhere in-between. I'm not big on a huge story or narrative, preferring a nice session to session feel. It would be nice if an NPC, enemy, theme carried over from time to time. On the power gamer I've never found one of those tables though, I've heard stories on how a power gamer/rules lawyer/wargamer was in a game with someone and they don't want that again. I want to be at that table and can't find it.
I've read/watched/played a bunch of stuff haha, I just posted the stuff I liked. I didn't get into some things that I know were really popular like the Wheel of time or Drizzt's adventures also Warcraft haha. A friend tried to get me into WoW but I preferred FFXI as my high school MMO.
On third party I do see the madness of DnDWiki and just something found off the back of a internet truck. It's more a frustration on supporting something buying into the idea I might be able to used it and feeling like naughty word. Your point on the Blood Hunter is spot on but I'd like to go a step further. Since they came out I've seen no end of people screaming about silvery barbs, Twilight cleric, honestly most of the power creep that came out in Tasha's and I agree with it. In the most recent FR book they put out the power between a bunch of the subclasses is wildly out of balance. That in addition to the martial caster divide being made larger in 5.5 makes me think very little of WotC's designers. With the guys who I did see growing up leaving WotC like Chris Perkins (honest, him running a game for the cast of Robot Chicken was my first time seeing a real dnd game) I lose faith.
On the Pern and sex stuff, I don't mind romance and the like being in the game. I have a hard line at ERP, which I don't think is to crazy of a limit. But it's the first thing people are sharing and making a huge deal about in game after game. I've played in a game where a nonbinary gnome raised by their overbearing lesbian mothers who wanted them to be a lawyer lashed out and made a warlock pact to become on the run. If it was ended there I'd say "ok this is a hard self insert for someone to vent" but the topic kept coming up again and again as the mothers became recuring NPC's. Also I'm frustrated at the amount of self inserts. I just want to have a consistent group where we slay some goblins, gather gold, save a town, die to a dragon. I'm aware of the how freaky FR is, one of the big ways I learned is the Tiefling breast milk thread on Twitter with Ed Greenwood. A thread where I have no idea on what's appropriate anymore where one of the women making a huge deal on how Ed's a freak actively draws/commissions art of her Tiefling vtuber getting railed by dragons... I don't know where the line is on any of this as I see people who seem sex positive being sex negative and people who make sex their entire character. While I don't want any of it to be a big deal. I want to play Dungeons and Dragons not kink's and cantrips... When games go 4 sessions long with no combat and it's just playing house I'm angry.
On the last part, They don't want help... It's a clash of interest. Where I want a wargame with progression and combat as that's what I grew up on they seem to want improv and only to LARP.

James G. Thank you! That was a good read and I appreciate hearing from the perspective of those here longer.

Homebrew is the most prevalent type of D&D home game. You are looking at the wrong places to recruit if people are looking at it as wrong/bad/fun.

Please point me in the right direction. I brought up the places that I've always thought as the most popular, hell even if you ask an AI chatbot they point you to the r/lfg and startplaying. While I'm done doing paid games I really want to know where I need to look.

If this is your being "respectful" and "grumbling a bit", I can say that you probably wouldn't be welcome at my table for very long, so I think you should look inward for a solution to many of your "problems" in this thread.

Oh it is. I feel a lot stronger about things then I do with this post. But it would just unreadable mess of a swears and bitching that come across more as a form of venting. The kind you'd do with a buddy but doesn't get anything accomplished. I cleaned it up twice before putting up, sorry if I missed some spelling errors.

 

[payn]

Hi guys. I'm a 33 year old dork who's played 5E for 7~8 years, a bit of 3.5 in high school, and a mix of other TT systems here and there (Shadowdark, Lancer, Kids on bikes, PF2, ect...). I know I'm too young to be a true grognard but I feel the label applies to me more and more every day haha. I wanted this thread to be a respectful attempt to ask a few questions and grumble a bit. Any engagement I get here I appreciate as I've been feeling a bit lost on the whole TTRPG scene for a while. I'll try to get back to everyone.

Hi, welcome.

The big things I wanted to hit on why has the traditional adventure/game seemed to have been replaced?

Traditional is a wide target. Traditional as in old school skill play? Or traditional as in theme and setting?

Why the weird weird mixed feelings on Thirdparty/homebrew content?

Folks have a hard time just wrapping their heads around the standard official offerings. I think there are two points that they struggle with. One is system mastery and adding hombrew is just more to learn. The second is trust. There has been a ton of homebrew stuff out there and folks are just not sure if its going to work well or not. It's not that official is insurance against a bad product, but folks just dont want to roll the dice.

You just need to advertise well that you want to use homebrew and find folks who have a similar interest.

Why is the current online recruiting spots (reddit, Startplaying) so... bad?

It's online culture. Folks just jump on anything, dont commit to it, dont care much of it, will ghost it in a seconds notice. I recommend trying Adventure League or PF society for a time. The goal here is to meet people in a low-commitment environment and build towards common understanding and desire. Build up to a steady campaign and learn the personalities of the players to see if you fit in every category. You will find better longer-lasting games if you build up to them instead of trying to start with them.

Why are modern players so bad at the game and the seeming want to remove the G from RPG?

See above. You are trying to get a specific play experience with randos. You gotta work your way to it first. It takes intent, time, and solid commitment to make it work.

I'm likely going to ruffle some feathers on this one. Why are so many games just posting the alphabet spellcasting all over them? I know the way I said that was a bit rude, but I don't understand it. We're here to play as elves, paladins, dragonborn ect. Who you wanna have sex with and what you are is the last thing on my mind. I've tried running a game few times (I burned out... I just can't DM) every time I look for players I'm blown away with some of the people I get! I have three questions I put upfront before just chatting with the potential players to see if they're a good fit. It used to be two but I had to start asking "Hey I want my table to be a safe place for everyone, are you able to remove modern politics and hang-ups at the door when you sit down at my virtual table?" The amount of times I've had people have a crash out on that stating anyone who disagrees with them or is even remotely right wing isn't a human being and worthy of death is over 10. I've never seen it the other way. I've played with gay guys and they're some of my favorite to play with, dudes are funny. This posting the alphabet on a game causes me to hesitate on even looking at a game because to me it should be something that is a default and not even asked. "Be cool to everyone". Having it on the post makes me think of the people who screamed at me for just asking "IF" they could play nice with everyone...

Hoo boy. Being LGBTQ+ isnt political. It's being who you are. I know its hard to imagine why folks are sensitive about it, what having never ever to fear just being yourself in any situation at all ever in your entire life, but lets think about this for a second. LGBTQ+ folks face a lot of discrimination to put it lightly. My experience with online communities is that it can get pretty bad. Often, the folks in the game dont know each other, so they often dont care if they are being rude or offensive. They could ghost the game like that and not care. Though, folks of the anti-woke persuasion often feel like they need to stick it out and push others to ghost instead.

Long story short, LGBTQ+ folks are having a hard time finding a good online game just like you. Unlike you, they face an extra hurdle to finding a good game. A hurdle thats likely 10X worse than anything you have described in your troubles finding a good game to date. Just give that another thought and consideration, please.

 

[VashVet]

That’s a lot to try and parse.

A few thoughts: OSR is not going to be a cure all for whatever is it you’re experiencing. It can still be people with big opinions about the style of play and lots of exclusionary takes on what you can’t play.

I’m not surprised that people on D&DBeyond only want to play stuff available on D&DBeyond. Maybe you can target people using other platforms like Roll20, Demiplane or others, and get groups more willing to use third party material. Also about homebrew, my DM and I home brewed a character class for our game so I can could play a particular concept not covered by the rules. Homebrewing still happens a lot.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, is making a “living” doing Paid DM. At best it’s offsetting some of the costs. A player can show up for free, having put virtually nothing into the game while the DM has already spent a few hours of their time and probably money into it.

That description of the game that got you hooked probably would be an RPG horror story for others. Everyone wants different things from their games. The hobby isn’t monolithic.

 

[KnightofCaliban]

Personally, we only ever play D&D with some amount of rules homebrew and out setting is homebrew as well. I will echo another poster and guess that some of difficulty you are experiencing with using 3PP stuff is the online nature of your gaming. I only play in person and have not had an issue with 3PP and homebrew content.

Yeah one big thing I taken away reading people posts is there is a wild difference between a game online and offline.

Here are some additional answers:

3pp content: If the DM does not own the content, then it is difficult to review and add it to the game. If using DDB, the process for adding new content via homebrew is also time-consuming. It almost always means that the DM is stuck with more work. This is the main reason that I would avoid some 3pp content is playing online using DDB and why a lot of people avoid content until it is added to DDB. It is less work in a physical game where you have paper sheets and can easily see someone's book. Personally, I tell people what content I allow at the start of the game. I do not use a lot of 3pp content right now because I just do not want the hassle and there is plenty of content in DDB for any player to find something that will work. If not, then I guess they continue hunting for a game that fits them.

Homebrew: I homebrew elusively. I dislike using official settings. Period. I just have issues making them my own.

Gaming & Politics: I have a no politics rule at my table. I did not always have to have this rule; however, social media over the last decade have ruined people's ability to socially interact and/or compromise. They no longer talk to each other. They talk at each other and do not attempt to engage past the surface level. With politics, it's like they no longer see folks with opposing viewpoints as human. This means that I do not allow politics at my table. If someone cannot hang up their tribal political BS for the duration of the session, then they can find another group. I play D&D, in part, to get away from the real world. I have to deal with politics too much in other parts of my life that I do not want to deal with it when I am playing a fantasy game with friends. Yes, I have had friends who cannot abide by that rule and I have had to ask them to find another table. It is toxic behavior.

Player behavior: The vast majority of players do not prepare ahead of time or read or even remember the last session. It has always been this way. It's why I argue so much with the crowd that says that a player's fun outweighs the DM's fun. Sorry, but if someone does most of the work carrying the game, then they get some say in things. If a player does show up and helps do the work, then the player gets more input.

Play style: There are plenty of groups still playing using old school styles and versions of the game to support them. I have knownm DMs that find it very difficult to not run a story-focused game. It is a skill and since a lot of DMs are new, since 5e, many just do not have the experience or skill yet to avoid the story-based railroads.

Thank you for being very clear and concise. I just ask where are these games and DM's? I have seen a post of them every so often but it's gone like that. As I brought up talking on reddit, is it something that I just need to be watching for way harder as they're far rarer or is there somewhere else to look.

Should be a default that everyone can sit at any table (literally and metaphorically) and be treated with respect - but the reality too often is it's not the default and people, using the weight of governments they control, are pushing back against making it the default every day. You just have to watch a news website long enough and you'll see people culture warring against that very idea. So that's why people post about LGBTQ+ being welcome and respected. They're doing what they can to actively make it the default that everyone should be cool to each other.
It's very easy to say "no politics at the table" when you're not the one fighting to live your life in the most authentic way you can. So please understand that it's hard for someone who is doing so to sit peacefully at a table with people who deny them that very right.

Yeah I watch the news and I see things that don't make any level of sense. I see stuff like Queers for Iran, a country that would kill them, while in a country that bends over backward for them. I've never sat down in a game where everyone talking or even joking on hating gay people or left leaning people. While I've been in plenty who've openly gone beyond joking on wishing harm on white people and right leaning people. It's honestly made me more far more warry as I'm playing by a different set of rules. It either goes both ways or should rather not go either way at all.

I'm going to assume this ALSO extends to heteronormative relationships as well? You don't allow PCs to flirt with the barmaid, hire a call girl, or marry their childhood sweetheart? No succubi, nymphs or satyrs using their magic to entice mortals info debauchery? Absolutely no bards rolling to seduce anything (and I mean any thing). Right?

I'm here to play an elf or paladin, not watch you try to score with imaginary NPCs. Keep it in your pants and wear some practical clothes, barbarian!

Honestly yeah. While I don't care if the bard is flirting someone up man, woman, dragon. I'd rather it's not happening and we get back to talking to the wizard we're at this bar to meet for a job. If a DM is using a Succubus to make everyone have a big O in combat and gain a point of exhaustion that's fine. Because it's playing to the nature of the devil and has a gameplay impact while not being overly creepy. Going beyond that I'm having issues.