D&D 3e & 3.5e Is Not Really An RPG

Magic Slim · Sep 1, 2003

Nightfall said:
*in that voice from the school counsoler from South park* "Trolls are bad. So kill lots of trolls. Cause killing isn't bad. If you kill trolls. So don't forget to kill trolls. Cause you don't want to be bad like trolls. Cause trolls are bad!"

And back to my note to Anhk, yes indeed, 4th place is just plain icky.

You mean Mr Mackey?

Nightfall · Sep 1, 2003

YES!!

And thank you Slim!

Blockader7 · Sep 1, 2003

Okay, to the ones who took my comments seriously in the manner they were meant to be taken, in that I had no intention of being a troll I thank you. This was meant to be a serious discussion, not a troll post.

To the idiots who's been accusing me of being a troll when I make a perfectly valid point that it is mostly a board-strategy game, you should go over to Troll Kingdom and see what real trolling is.

3.5 is mostly a board-strategy game on the order of Warhammer with the amount of rules there are to it.

Magic Slim · Sep 1, 2003

Nightfall said:
YES!! And thank you Slim!

no problem... as for post count, I just realized I'd be on cool page 7 if I hadn't switched nicks twice...

Blockader: Some people do tend to "cry troll" a little too early, I'll admit it. As for your initial hypothesis, as someone said, the three core books are moslty rules and do not contain much fluff. I'll say that it IS quite possible to play D&D as a table top game, but few are the people that actually do.

If the only thing you're into is dungeoncrawling, of course it's going to feel that way, but there are worlds of possibilities, the only limit being the imagination of your DM

As an unrelated suggestion, as much as I sympathise with the fact that you haven't been taken seriously, I suggest you moderate (edit) your last post, or the thread might very well be closed...

Slim

Djeta Thernadier · Sep 1, 2003

Nightfall said:
Djeta,

I think it would help if I put a "TROLL" sign around his neck. Might spare you the pain of dealing with trolls.

My heros...

pogre · Sep 1, 2003

Blockader7 said:
To the idiots who's been accusing me of being a troll when I make a perfectly valid point that it is mostly a board-strategy game, you should go over to Troll Kingdom and see what real trolling is.

That's not very friendly and frankly the tone of your posts engendered such a reaction. A negative post about D&D on a D&D board is going to get people up in arms. How about righting the ship by defining roleplaying in your world? Then slip over to the Story Hour board and see if some of those stories fit your definition - my guess is if your open and honest you will find some.

BTW - I love the miniature wargame aspects of D&D but it would be pretty empty without a story. A pure miniatures game or boardgame has no such element.

S'mon · Sep 1, 2003

Ranger REG said:
You're kidding me, right? You, the DM, who is roleplaying a bunch of monsters or villains does not know when it is the right time to retreat or even flee from a fight they cannot win? Barring some that don't even know the meaning of surrender, like animated undead, if you see you are being slaughtered down to less than the number of PCs in the battle, you must consider self-preservation. It's an inherent nature of all living creatures. Tap into YOUR OWN instinct.

That's ok if I'm playing a single NPC or maybe a small group of PC-type NPCs. IMO it's not ok if I'm playing a horde of goblins or an ogre squad. If 50 goblins attack 4 PCs and 20 are killed, they'll probably run away, but they might not - especially if the PCs appear to be struggling (so eg roll 6+ on 2d6 to flee). If 47 are killed, yes obviously the last ones will flee!

S'mon · Sep 1, 2003

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
How do Morale Rules ADD to roleplaying? Don't they just take AWAY roleplaying? I think we should only have rules for combat(and maybe a few situations here and there, like craft etc). Rules for roleplaying is baaaaad.

Well, I think (simple) morale rules helps the DM treat the NPCs as more than chess pieces on a board*. Although good wargames have morale rules too - eg the Warhammer morale rules are effectively identical to Basic D&D's, one reason I find the 2d6 roll handy. I also think the 2d6 bell curve gives better results for group mentality & the possible cascade effect of a failed roll than either a single d20 roll or a d20 roll for every NPC would.

*Since I don't think a DM can easily get under the skin of more than a few NPCs at a time. It's not a problem when playing one or a very small number of NPCs, who can be DM'd 'in character'.

Sanackranib · Sep 1, 2003

MythosaAkira said:
Is it really necessary to have rules for morale? I would think that based on the particulars of a situation and the intelligence/personality/whatever of the monsters or NPCs, a DM should be able to adjudicate how they would react. An iron golem, for instance, is likely to fight until destroyed, while an orc that just saw his nine buddies get fried is likely not to stick around to see what would happen to him. If someone could truly go either way, flip a coin. Granted, any rule could be handled "manually" by the DM, but it always felt like the morale rules were unnecessary and slowed things down.

I ignored the morale rules in 1e/2e and simply decided what something would do based on what it was and was kind of situation it found itself in.

I could not disagree more strongly. granted some monsters would fight to the death - but most of those are non intiligent. if DM arbitary decision is the method used then I might as well be watching a movie. I expect my actions to have an impact. as a player, I like to set up situations where the moral of the enemies gets put to the test. if it was importent that they stick arround for the plot . . . well I got news for you, I am not playing by a script. so if I do somthing that causes ripples in the plotling then I expect the DM to find some other way to adjust or adapt. after all its about the PC's winning the day or at least trying to and good ideas and skilled roll playing should always be rewarded. even if it means extra work for the DM.

Tsyr · Sep 1, 2003

Blockader7 said:
3.5 is mostly a board-strategy game on the order of Warhammer with the amount of rules there are to it.

That, too, is a flawed arguement. Plenty of games are rules heavy... Shadowrun, HERO, Hackmaster, Palladium, etc... In fact, there are several games that put D20 to shame for amount of rules. Yet no one is saying they aren't roleplaying games.

Now, if you are saying that it's the amount of rules related to playing within a grid... *shrug* That's not really a valid arguement either, IMO. DnD also has rules for money, but that doesn't make it monopoly. It has rules for using dice, but that doesn't make it a casino game. DnD is more than the sum of it's parts... The various rules combine to make the game what it is.

D&D 3e & 3.5e Is Not Really An RPG

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