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Greyhawk (Keoland) campaign brainstorming (my players keep out!)
- Thread starter shilsen
- Start date
Thank you!
Tales from Greyhawk I find most satisfying!!! Like food for my brain!
Thank you!
I played in the Greyhawk Wars and From The Ashes but my DM ran the scenarios up around The Duchy of Tenh and Bandit Kingdoms.
Since he left for law school (along with both supplements) my knowledge of the Wars primarily lies with Iuz mimicing a Northern Barbarian Diety and then uniting the Barbarian nations for an invasion South.
I don't really know what happened in Keoland and its surrounding kingdoms.
So my first question is: What impact/effect did the Greyhawk Wars have in your campaign on the Kingdom of Keoland and the surrounding kingdoms?
Second question: What was the aftermath effect of the war on Keoland and surrounding kingdoms?
As an example:
Valley of the Mage
Grand Duchy of Geoff
Bissel
Gran March
Duchy, County, and Principality of Ulek
Celene
Pomarj
Sterich
The Yeomanry
Hold of The Sea Princes-(especially this one)
Tales from Greyhawk I find most satisfying!!! Like food for my brain!
Thank you!
I played in the Greyhawk Wars and From The Ashes but my DM ran the scenarios up around The Duchy of Tenh and Bandit Kingdoms.
Since he left for law school (along with both supplements) my knowledge of the Wars primarily lies with Iuz mimicing a Northern Barbarian Diety and then uniting the Barbarian nations for an invasion South.
I don't really know what happened in Keoland and its surrounding kingdoms.
So my first question is: What impact/effect did the Greyhawk Wars have in your campaign on the Kingdom of Keoland and the surrounding kingdoms?
Second question: What was the aftermath effect of the war on Keoland and surrounding kingdoms?
As an example:
Valley of the Mage
Grand Duchy of Geoff
Bissel
Gran March
Duchy, County, and Principality of Ulek
Celene
Pomarj
Sterich
The Yeomanry
Hold of The Sea Princes-(especially this one)
Tilla the Hun (work)
First Post
Just a quick note - anytime you're thinking in terms of 'plot hooks' and 'players options' - you're over-prepared when using the style I referenced in my earlier post.
In all honesty - don't worry about what the players 'will' do - they'll never do exactly what you expect them to anyway, so don't even bother.
Rather, worry about what they 'are' doing. Sounds like you have several things going on a higher level than the players are seeing. That's great - just start having those higher level plots (what I call meta-plots) start causing minor effects (details) in the players presences. Sooner or later, they'll choose to chase one down. However remote from the meta plot it may be, it will lead them to a clue - and the chasing down of it lends time for the meta-plot to advance, thereby creating additional details or mini-plots that'll likely happen in the presence of the characters, and the cycle repeats until they become aware of the meta-plot and start acting in ways that directly influence it.
The biggest problem I've had is that in any given 6 hours of gaming, I'll need about 5 different 5 minutes of 'hold' time so I can re-write large chunks of plot due to their actions or so that I can prep a quick encounter or 10-15 minutes to prep a random dungeon.
Play varies between RP and hack'n'slash at the rate they want it to (either one works for me to have fun), almost when they want it to. I had a bard break down a full fledged fight against some 20 odd orcs by reciting poetry, the mage took it from there and turned a hack'n'slash fight into a full RP session, with me scrambling to find personalities for a orc chieftain and shaman
. It was great.
So seriously, don't worry about what options are open, what plot hooks you may have - those players, once they get used to the idea, are going to find their own... And then you get the challenge of dealing with what they find
In all honesty - don't worry about what the players 'will' do - they'll never do exactly what you expect them to anyway, so don't even bother.
Rather, worry about what they 'are' doing. Sounds like you have several things going on a higher level than the players are seeing. That's great - just start having those higher level plots (what I call meta-plots) start causing minor effects (details) in the players presences. Sooner or later, they'll choose to chase one down. However remote from the meta plot it may be, it will lead them to a clue - and the chasing down of it lends time for the meta-plot to advance, thereby creating additional details or mini-plots that'll likely happen in the presence of the characters, and the cycle repeats until they become aware of the meta-plot and start acting in ways that directly influence it.
The biggest problem I've had is that in any given 6 hours of gaming, I'll need about 5 different 5 minutes of 'hold' time so I can re-write large chunks of plot due to their actions or so that I can prep a quick encounter or 10-15 minutes to prep a random dungeon.
Play varies between RP and hack'n'slash at the rate they want it to (either one works for me to have fun), almost when they want it to. I had a bard break down a full fledged fight against some 20 odd orcs by reciting poetry, the mage took it from there and turned a hack'n'slash fight into a full RP session, with me scrambling to find personalities for a orc chieftain and shaman
. It was great.So seriously, don't worry about what options are open, what plot hooks you may have - those players, once they get used to the idea, are going to find their own... And then you get the challenge of dealing with what they find
shilsen
Adventurer
Hunter said:
I'm essentially sticking with the current political situation as described in the Greyhawk Gazetteer, with minor changes here and there. Where Keoland is concerned, the nation emerged relatively unscathed from the Greyhawk Wars, and that (as well as the recent freeing of Sterich) has bred a little unwonted overconfidence in King Kimbertos. Over the next few months, Keoland is likely to try to push further into the Hold of the Sea Princes (which is an incredibly chaotic area at this point in my campaign; the PCs have had no connection with it at all), as well as financing adventurers to make inroads into Geoff. Within the country, an important project right now is the re-establishment of treaties with the lizardmen of the Hool Marshes (esp. important in view of its geographical position north of the Hold of the SP). The recently released Gulthias is also set to soon become a major danger from his lair within the Dreadwood.
All of these are areas where the PCs may choose to become involved. But that's entirely up to them (see post below, responding to Tilla the Hun).
shilsen
Adventurer
Tilla the Hun (work) said:Just a quick note - anytime you're thinking in terms of 'plot hooks' and 'players options' - you're over-prepared when using the style I referenced in my earlier post.
In all honesty - don't worry about what the players 'will' do - they'll never do exactly what you expect them to anyway, so don't even bother.
Rather, worry about what they 'are' doing....
So seriously, don't worry about what options are open, what plot hooks you may have - those players, once they get used to the idea, are going to find their own... And then you get the challenge of dealing with what they find
Sounds like your DM-ing style is incredibly close to mine. Whenever discussions come up on these boards about preparation for a game (esp. for newbies), I find myself expressing the same kind of ideas that you just did. I'm a firm believer in the axiom that players will do the one thing one didn't expect, so it's much better to react to their decisions than try to anticipate them. Luckily I'm good at flying by the seat of my pants, so I'm never caught on the hop.
After last weekend's session, my PCs are about one session (or less) away from being faced with a huge decision - do they accuse their patron of wrongdoing or simply go along with what he says? I'm going to give them enough material to make each option at least viable, and then simply respond based on their decisions.
shilsen
Adventurer
Adventuring Parties and Patronage in Keoland
Here's somethign more from my campaign. I decided that a stable kingdom like Keoland would want to have some fairly stringent control over armed and powerful individuals (i.e. adventurers) roaming around within its borders. So I cam up with a system of patronage, based very loosely on the way patronage for playing (acting) companies worked in Elizabethan England. I figure it provides some degree of state control while leaving enough loopholes for smart players and PCs to exploit.
Adventuring Parties and Patronage in Keoland
Despite its fairly tumultuous history and strong role in military campaigns abroad, within its borders Keoland is one of the most stable states in the Flanaess. While the rulers of Keoland have always accepted the importance of adventurers and adventuring parties to the health of the kingdom (and not a few ex-adventurers have ruled the country), they have also always been keenly aware of the danger posed to the security of a country with well-armed spell-slinging individuals travelling indiscriminately within its borders. To minimize this problem while retaining the advantages of a resident population of adventurers, the Keoish crown has had the concept of patronage in existence for the last few centuries.
Patronage: All adventuring parties in Keoland must be officially registered with the kingdom. Such registration is usually carried out with one of the members of the King's Bench, whether the itinerant judges who travel the country or at one of the permanent courts in one of the 4 primary cities. At the time of registration, the party must either be accompanied by an individual who agrees to be their patron (see below) or have a written and sealed document from the patron (which must identify the names of all members of the party). After paying the required sum (usually 100 gp + 25 gp per member), the primary representative of the party is provided with an Adventurer's Writ, listing the name of the group (see below), name and signature of the patron and the group's members (up to 12 - any more requires registration as a mercenary company, which is a much more complicated process), their home province and a little space for their notable deeds. Each Writ must be renewed annually, by paying the same amount as at creation (modified appropriately as the number of members changes). A Writ can be cancelled by a patron or the majority of the members of the group. An individual can also have his name cancelled from a Writ for a small payment.
Nomenclature: An Adventurer's Writ always lists the name of the adventuring party, and follows up with the phrase, "the [insert patron's position]'s men". Hence, a registered adventuring party in Keoland will be known by their own name (e.g. The Swords of Light) and that of their patron (e.g. The Earl of Gand's Men).
Patrons: Acceptable patrons in Keoland consist of any noble of the realm (at or above the rank of knight) and his immediate family. More rarely, a reasonably high-ranking member of the clergy may also function as a patron, but any cleric who is not either a member of the Divinity Council or the head of a recognized priesthood in a given province is likely to be refused. An individual may never be the patron for more than one adventuring company.
Duties of a patron: The duties of a patron are literally non-existent. Officially the patron is responsible for all acts of the party, but in actuality while the patron may benefit vicariously from the fame garnered by a party adventuring in his name, any infamy garnered by them usually leads only to commiseration from the patron's peers and the swift cancellation of the Writ. Some of the more generous patrons provide funds for their sponsored parties, especially those which have fallen on hard times.
Duties of an adventuring party: An adventuring party is officially supposed to obey the wishes of their patron, but in reality most patrons do not exercise consistent control over a party's actions, only putting forth requests for specific actions when necessary. The small print on an Adventurer's Writ says that the member of a party pledge to protect their patron's life, his land and holdings, and to protect the lives of all innocents which dwell therein. This is usually achieved more often by parties which dwell regularly within their patron's lands then by itinerant ones.
Results of patronage: The patron's primary benefit is the advantage of having a powerful (presumably) group of individuals who are beholden to him. While a patron does not wield autocratic control over the party he sponsors, the fact that adventurers are not officially accepted into Keoish society without patronage means that they are likely to humor his wishes whenever possible. Lawkeeping within a territory, elimination of dangerous monsters, exploration of strange places, etc. can all be accomplished more easily with a resident group of adventurers. Also, since a successful group of adventurers usually spend a lot of money in the area where they dwell (usually their patron's demesne), they can be an economic boon too. Some parties, esp. those sponsored by a religious figure, tithe from their trasure and add to their patron's coffers in this way.
The benefits to an adventuring party from patronage are manifold. They cannot legally adventure within the borders of Keoland without patronage (see below). Many places and individuals will not hire adventurers for any task if they do not have official registration. In many towns, carrying a weapon larger than a dagger is illegal unless one is a registered adventurer (or another licensed to do so, like a soldier or a town guard). Some of the higher levels of society are barred to adventurers who do not have powerful patrons. In short, the registered adventurer can count on the existence of a patron (however distant physically) to allow him a safe space in a society where he might otherwise be considered a dangerous and disruptive influence.
The Master of the Travails: The individual officially in charge of adventuring parties in Keoland is the Master of the Travails, whose office keeps records of all parties in existence in the kingdom. Depending on the actions of a particular party, he may cancel their Writ even against the will of them and their patrons. More rarely, when a party becomes a danger to the realm, it is his duty to have them apprehended and punished. This is usually accomplished with the help of other adventuring parties in the vicinity of the troublesome group. Royal proclamations that have to do with adventurers in general and information about certain missions are channeled through his office too. On very rare occasions, when a group of adventurers run into problems where the aid of a high-ranking noble of the realm is necessary and where their patron cannot help, they may petition the Master of the Travails for aid. The results of such petitions vary considerably, ranging from the arrangement of a royal audience to being completely ignored.
Advantages to the Crown: The Crown gains a number of substantial benefits from the patronage system. Not only does it gain a substantial amount of money, but it is provided with information about the existence and general whereabouts of some of the country's most dangerous and powerful inhabitants. The Master of Travails' records also provide lists of individuals who could be profitably employed by the Crown at times of national emergency and need. Lastly, the patronage system allows the Crown to provide the dangerously mutable and socially mobile community of adventurers with a social space while keeping them clearly subservient to the nobility.
Itinerant adventuring parties: While an Adventurer's Writ lists the group's home province, many (if not most) of them travel far and wide. Within Keoland, an Adventurer's Writ is all the proof of identity that is needed, however far they may travel. If travelling outside Keoland, the weightage given to a Writ is far less, but it can sometimes lead to better treatment in some of Keoland's neighbouring states. Further afield, a Keoish Writ can be meanigless or even a dangerous document to possess.
Foreign adventurers: Similarities to the Keoish system exist in many other nations, especially those of the Sheldomar Valley. Foreign adventurers travelling in Keoland are usually required to obtain a Temporary Adventurer's Writ which lasts only three months and may be renewed only once. After that, the group had better find a permanent Keoish patron.
Non-registered adventurers: Non-registered adventurers are considered vagabonds at best, and a serious danger to the local noble's and the king's peace. The fact that an adventurer has no Writ is usually taken to mean that he is incompetent, a criminal, or both. While some will hire them for clandestine operations (or at times and in situations of complete desperation), they are usually encouraged to quickly move on from wherever they are, often towards the nearest member of the King's Bench.
Here's somethign more from my campaign. I decided that a stable kingdom like Keoland would want to have some fairly stringent control over armed and powerful individuals (i.e. adventurers) roaming around within its borders. So I cam up with a system of patronage, based very loosely on the way patronage for playing (acting) companies worked in Elizabethan England. I figure it provides some degree of state control while leaving enough loopholes for smart players and PCs to exploit.
Adventuring Parties and Patronage in Keoland
Despite its fairly tumultuous history and strong role in military campaigns abroad, within its borders Keoland is one of the most stable states in the Flanaess. While the rulers of Keoland have always accepted the importance of adventurers and adventuring parties to the health of the kingdom (and not a few ex-adventurers have ruled the country), they have also always been keenly aware of the danger posed to the security of a country with well-armed spell-slinging individuals travelling indiscriminately within its borders. To minimize this problem while retaining the advantages of a resident population of adventurers, the Keoish crown has had the concept of patronage in existence for the last few centuries.
Patronage: All adventuring parties in Keoland must be officially registered with the kingdom. Such registration is usually carried out with one of the members of the King's Bench, whether the itinerant judges who travel the country or at one of the permanent courts in one of the 4 primary cities. At the time of registration, the party must either be accompanied by an individual who agrees to be their patron (see below) or have a written and sealed document from the patron (which must identify the names of all members of the party). After paying the required sum (usually 100 gp + 25 gp per member), the primary representative of the party is provided with an Adventurer's Writ, listing the name of the group (see below), name and signature of the patron and the group's members (up to 12 - any more requires registration as a mercenary company, which is a much more complicated process), their home province and a little space for their notable deeds. Each Writ must be renewed annually, by paying the same amount as at creation (modified appropriately as the number of members changes). A Writ can be cancelled by a patron or the majority of the members of the group. An individual can also have his name cancelled from a Writ for a small payment.
Nomenclature: An Adventurer's Writ always lists the name of the adventuring party, and follows up with the phrase, "the [insert patron's position]'s men". Hence, a registered adventuring party in Keoland will be known by their own name (e.g. The Swords of Light) and that of their patron (e.g. The Earl of Gand's Men).
Patrons: Acceptable patrons in Keoland consist of any noble of the realm (at or above the rank of knight) and his immediate family. More rarely, a reasonably high-ranking member of the clergy may also function as a patron, but any cleric who is not either a member of the Divinity Council or the head of a recognized priesthood in a given province is likely to be refused. An individual may never be the patron for more than one adventuring company.
Duties of a patron: The duties of a patron are literally non-existent. Officially the patron is responsible for all acts of the party, but in actuality while the patron may benefit vicariously from the fame garnered by a party adventuring in his name, any infamy garnered by them usually leads only to commiseration from the patron's peers and the swift cancellation of the Writ. Some of the more generous patrons provide funds for their sponsored parties, especially those which have fallen on hard times.
Duties of an adventuring party: An adventuring party is officially supposed to obey the wishes of their patron, but in reality most patrons do not exercise consistent control over a party's actions, only putting forth requests for specific actions when necessary. The small print on an Adventurer's Writ says that the member of a party pledge to protect their patron's life, his land and holdings, and to protect the lives of all innocents which dwell therein. This is usually achieved more often by parties which dwell regularly within their patron's lands then by itinerant ones.
Results of patronage: The patron's primary benefit is the advantage of having a powerful (presumably) group of individuals who are beholden to him. While a patron does not wield autocratic control over the party he sponsors, the fact that adventurers are not officially accepted into Keoish society without patronage means that they are likely to humor his wishes whenever possible. Lawkeeping within a territory, elimination of dangerous monsters, exploration of strange places, etc. can all be accomplished more easily with a resident group of adventurers. Also, since a successful group of adventurers usually spend a lot of money in the area where they dwell (usually their patron's demesne), they can be an economic boon too. Some parties, esp. those sponsored by a religious figure, tithe from their trasure and add to their patron's coffers in this way.
The benefits to an adventuring party from patronage are manifold. They cannot legally adventure within the borders of Keoland without patronage (see below). Many places and individuals will not hire adventurers for any task if they do not have official registration. In many towns, carrying a weapon larger than a dagger is illegal unless one is a registered adventurer (or another licensed to do so, like a soldier or a town guard). Some of the higher levels of society are barred to adventurers who do not have powerful patrons. In short, the registered adventurer can count on the existence of a patron (however distant physically) to allow him a safe space in a society where he might otherwise be considered a dangerous and disruptive influence.
The Master of the Travails: The individual officially in charge of adventuring parties in Keoland is the Master of the Travails, whose office keeps records of all parties in existence in the kingdom. Depending on the actions of a particular party, he may cancel their Writ even against the will of them and their patrons. More rarely, when a party becomes a danger to the realm, it is his duty to have them apprehended and punished. This is usually accomplished with the help of other adventuring parties in the vicinity of the troublesome group. Royal proclamations that have to do with adventurers in general and information about certain missions are channeled through his office too. On very rare occasions, when a group of adventurers run into problems where the aid of a high-ranking noble of the realm is necessary and where their patron cannot help, they may petition the Master of the Travails for aid. The results of such petitions vary considerably, ranging from the arrangement of a royal audience to being completely ignored.
Advantages to the Crown: The Crown gains a number of substantial benefits from the patronage system. Not only does it gain a substantial amount of money, but it is provided with information about the existence and general whereabouts of some of the country's most dangerous and powerful inhabitants. The Master of Travails' records also provide lists of individuals who could be profitably employed by the Crown at times of national emergency and need. Lastly, the patronage system allows the Crown to provide the dangerously mutable and socially mobile community of adventurers with a social space while keeping them clearly subservient to the nobility.
Itinerant adventuring parties: While an Adventurer's Writ lists the group's home province, many (if not most) of them travel far and wide. Within Keoland, an Adventurer's Writ is all the proof of identity that is needed, however far they may travel. If travelling outside Keoland, the weightage given to a Writ is far less, but it can sometimes lead to better treatment in some of Keoland's neighbouring states. Further afield, a Keoish Writ can be meanigless or even a dangerous document to possess.
Foreign adventurers: Similarities to the Keoish system exist in many other nations, especially those of the Sheldomar Valley. Foreign adventurers travelling in Keoland are usually required to obtain a Temporary Adventurer's Writ which lasts only three months and may be renewed only once. After that, the group had better find a permanent Keoish patron.
Non-registered adventurers: Non-registered adventurers are considered vagabonds at best, and a serious danger to the local noble's and the king's peace. The fact that an adventurer has no Writ is usually taken to mean that he is incompetent, a criminal, or both. While some will hire them for clandestine operations (or at times and in situations of complete desperation), they are usually encouraged to quickly move on from wherever they are, often towards the nearest member of the King's Bench.
Greyhack
First Post
Not to rain on the parade here, but that's a healthy chunk of copyrighted material you're posting there, Hunter.
If anyone without the original books wants some nice information on Keoland, allow me to graciously recommend http://keoland.living-greyhawk.com and shamelessly recommend http://www.canonfire.com
I myself just added a fairly comprehensive map of Keoland and its neighbors that might be useful to some of yall.
If anyone without the original books wants some nice information on Keoland, allow me to graciously recommend http://keoland.living-greyhawk.com and shamelessly recommend http://www.canonfire.com
I myself just added a fairly comprehensive map of Keoland and its neighbors that might be useful to some of yall.
Its ok, unless the copyright owners (and/or an EnWorld Master of Travails Official) contact me directly-(via Private Message) telling me to cease and desist, I will continue...
I actually know the copyright owners. They are good sentient creatures. They have my e-mail and I have theirs. Anyone pretending to be the owners e-mailing me will be blocked by my spam control.
Thanks by the way for the links. The more the better!
Shilsen this Patronage law is incredible stuff! I must read it over before coming back with more Brain Storms! Although off the top I can see possible exploitation of the law by Marius to get the character party on the run. Also I see corrupt Barons, or Counts using these character partys as 'secret muscle' to enforce their will on other Nobles. As well as an industrious Thief with forge skill to mimic papers for say foreign evil characters who would rather not be known by the Justice/Judge.
Excellent move my friend, excellent!
~Hunter
I actually know the copyright owners. They are good sentient creatures. They have my e-mail and I have theirs. Anyone pretending to be the owners e-mailing me will be blocked by my spam control.
Thanks by the way for the links. The more the better!
Shilsen this Patronage law is incredible stuff! I must read it over before coming back with more Brain Storms! Although off the top I can see possible exploitation of the law by Marius to get the character party on the run. Also I see corrupt Barons, or Counts using these character partys as 'secret muscle' to enforce their will on other Nobles. As well as an industrious Thief with forge skill to mimic papers for say foreign evil characters who would rather not be known by the Justice/Judge.
Excellent move my friend, excellent!
~Hunter
Last edited:
Tilla the Hun (work)
First Post
shilsen said:
I think you're right about our similiarities - especially after reading your post about the 'patronage' law...
Personally, I've rigged my kingdom to pre-emptively pull all native born adventurers into a quasi law enforcement agency where they pretty much become roving troubleshooters for the crown. It gives the authority some degree of control, while still providing the party with a great deal of latitude.
I would say a lot more, but I'm thinking I'm hijacking this thread entirely too much.
Good Luck Hunter! Sounds like a great game.
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