tall, with long flowing black hair and dark eyes.

alsih2o said:

yeah, it is. when i think of butt kicking hero types i think col. bo gritz or tank abbot. i see the defensive line of a small college or guys from the physics dept.

what i don't think of is fabio or eric estrada.

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I'm not familiar with bo gritz or tank abbot, who are they?

Are there any other pot-bellied hero descriptions or images you can refer me to? I can only think of Bilbo and the hobbits. The majority of heros I think of in literature, movies, and FRPG books are physcially fit.

die_kluge said:

I think part of the problem is that there isn't a comeliness score included on the character sheet.

All the Sorcerers, Clerics, Paladins, and Bards with high charismas automatically become beautiful people through a loose interpretation of what charisma really represented.

Obviously, Hitler was highly charismatic, but ugly as sin, so one score doesn't really work.

I think BoEF includes a new Comeliness attribute, which I imagine will be a necessity for those using such rules.

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IMO, having just the one stat is a good way to deal with it. People want to play a fantasy game to be something they aren't (or maybe something they are with a twist). High Charisma does not have to equal good looks (just as low charisma does not have to equal poor hygiene or looks), but letting the player have the option of how they want to describe their character gives them the freedom to try to be something that they want to play.

It's then up to the DM to ensure that the person is "playing to their stats" for other things. A low Charisma score means that you're probably not going to get the good deals, or be let into the ritzy Inns, etc. While a high Charisma score means that you're going to have a much better chance of getting the guards to see your point of view, or influence that mob that they really do want to start a riot against the current leadership...

While the whole thought behind having a "game score" to determine your character's looks forces people to play varied types of characters, is that really what people want? <sarcasm>If you're going to go that far then why not take it all the way and force people to only play fighter-types if they have a high strength and only play wizard-types if they have a high intelligence?</sarcasm> Personally I think a less than brilliant, average-looking wizard could be an interesting challenge to play

edit: Added the sarcasm tags so that people would be sure to take the comment in the intended way

Voadam said:

I'm not familiar with bo gritz or tank abbot, who are they?

Are there any other pot-bellied hero descriptions or images you can refer me to? I can only think of Bilbo and the hobbits. The majority of heros I think of in literature, movies, and FRPG books are physcially fit.

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tank abbot is a chubby, beer-bellied ufc fighter, bo gritz was a u.s. army colonel who was supposedly the inspiration for Rambo. trust me, he doesn't ook like stallone

I once played a character who wore ornate battle armor, complete with flowing cape and a mask. With a Charisma score of 14, high Intimidate and an overall fearsome appearance, he dominated the battlefield (or dungeon) - barking out commands, cowing the opposition and so on and so forth.

Outside of combat, and the armor, he faded into the background. A blond geek with bad eyesight and a stutter and a bad taste in clothing.

I currently play a character who - while adventuring - wears a superhero costume.Yup - cape, mask, insignia, the works. (I've this thing for creating superhero characters. Fun.) While adventuring, he goes by a superhero moniker, is completely rude to everyone and has no sense of teamwork whatsoever.

When in his 'other identity' he's a meek, addle-brained himbo who doesn't have a backbone. Sure he looks good - his charisma is 14 - but he's nothing more than a sycophant trying to fit in with the 'cool' bunch.

I think this is subject to the question of why people role-play (which is true of any of the ability scores of a PC, amongst many other things, of course). Some people like to play attractive characters, some like to play unattractive ones, and other like to play a mixture. Some people like variety and others don't. They why of it is the key here, and sometimes it leads to bizarre conclusions.

I believe that almost everything is a stereotype in one form or another. Uniqueness is definitely a rarity, which, IMO, is a good thing, because it stands out all the more. Of course, this is yet another stereotype.

Djeta Thernadier said:

I tend to think that charisma is more about how you present yourself. For instance, you could have a physically bland character who has such a great personality or is so good at speaking to people that his or her charisma score is really high. Likewise, you can have a drop dead gorgeous person who is a total bore...

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I actually have a friend who is like that. He's a really handsome and nice guy who has inspired dozens of crushes (from girls and guys) but the moment he starts speaking... talk about a total change of charisma score.

I've had a string of ordinary-looking characters myself. They tend to, as a consequence, be devoid of any descriptive value that *I* can remember. The fact of the matter is that by simply attaching a description to your character, you've drawn attention to various features. How do you describe the average Joe, beyond the most basic "fill-in-the-blank" forms that you might see on someone's driver's license? You can't. He's baseline from which everything is measured! With a complete lack of any distinguishing features, you can't really describe anything about him without calling attention to it, and by extension, making it somewhat special. Somewhere, somebody's compiled demographics data which could be used to create *THE* Joe Average, who has the average stat in every single way....yet this, too, is an exceptional case, because real people just aren't like that: In order to describe the bland character, you have to shut up.

Remember: You are unique, just like everyone else.

Voadam said:

Poor Barsoomcore, doubly cursed to running a game where all the players are stewardesses as well. It is just not fair.

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You know, I never thought of that. The poor girls. Perhaps I should wear a mask, so they'll be less likely to succumb to temptation (and thus suffer the wrath of Mrs. Barsoom). I wouldn't want to be responsible for reducing the world supply of stewardesses.

Oni said:

Funnily enough I don't think I've ever really read any descriptions of handsome dwarves, and certainly none that were dreamy. People that play dwarves a lot seem to revel in making them squat, hairy, ugly, uncouth creatures, most of these people also seem to hate elves.....


You know now that I think of it, gnomes are really the race that seems to be depicted with the most variance in appearance. Everything from ugly to absurd to Gimble.

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My one dwarven character was descibed as good looking, in fact dreamy. His name was Grimsome Kerros, and he had been exiled from his home because of his religious beliefs that did not agree with the Clan Elders. So despite his high birth he was shaved and cast into the human world. He eventually became a paladin and kept his face clean shaven in shame of his exile. I described him as being strong jawed with iron grey eyes and thick black hair allowed to hand loose over his hsoulders. He was always roleplayed as being gregarious, commanding, honest and loyal, but dwarves, both men and women immediatly hated him.

Whilst looks can vary with charisma, there are core reasons why the two are directly related to each other.

Firstly, appearance can give one self-confidence and enhanced social skills, simply by dint of interaction in social situations. If people are more likely to start a conversation with you, this will tend to boost self-confidence, particularly if those convert into dates etc. Moreover, given that you will have more conversations than a person of identical 'personality score' (difficult to rationalise, but using the 2e S&P separation of charisma subscores) you will necessarily gain more practice in social situations.

Secondly, charisma reflects how one is perceived to other people. It is clear that more attractive people are perceived better, in general, by other people assuming equivalent 'personality scores'. A test showed that babies had an inclination towards beautiful faces: this is not a social construction; some notion of beauty is inherent.

Thirdly, in a reversal, 'personality' can grant 'appearance'. Someone of high self-confidence will tend to be more confident in their appearance, and carry themselves appropriate. If there are two people of identical physical appearance, but widely different self-confidence, the one of lower self-confidence may attract to detract from her innate beauty by slouching, being hunched, lack of facial expressions etc. The more self-confident one will be *perceived* as more attractive in an interpersonal social context.

Whilst Cha = App is a fallacy, there is a link. To reflect that, I use Appearance as 3d6 + Cha mod. Whilst this can create attractive but uninspiring people of 4 Cha and 15 App; or unattractive leaders of 16 Cha and 6 App, the *trend* is positive.