OotS 464

Nyeshet said:

As for St Cuthbert, I was under the impression that he had been a Paladin in 2e, but due to his AL shift in 3e (to LN), he is (in the 3e deity book) a Fighter / Cleric instead. That was what I meant about his being restructured for 3e.

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No, St. Cuthbert was never a paladin. In 1e he was a Cleric 22/Druid 8/Monk 7, which is somewhat different from his current Fighter 20/Cleric 20, but not because of his alignment. His alignment was listed as Lawful good (Neutral). In 3e he's listed as LN, but he still dwells in Arcadia and it's noted that he favors good over evil (that is, he's LN (LG) instead of LG (LN)). Not really much of a change. The primary change was the addition of Retribution to his portfolio.

As for lawful stupid, his intelligence score in 1e was 10; not really stupid, but certainly not very bright for a deity. He was always portrayed as very stern and overzealous, to the point that his clerics used ESP to punish people for thoughtcrimes.

In 2e he was the primary patron of the Harmonium faction in Planescape, if that means anything to you. They're the ones who caused the third layer of Arcadia to slide into Mechanus due to their excessive zealousness in persecuting Chaos.

DreadArchon said:

What and the huh now? Lawful Stupid is more like the paladin I played with who told the bad guys about the the good guys' secret plan because he "wasn't sure they were bad guys yet, and as Lawful Good he should be cooperative with people unless he knows they're enemies, they deserve not to be lied to." Lawful Stupid is donating all of your gold to the poor, because you're charitable and such, and then letting a Red Dragon kill thousands of innocent people because you couldn't afford Fire Resistance for your buckler.

Lawful Stupid is a function of people who don't get Lawful Good but are trying to act like they're Lawful Good. Cuthbert is Lawful Neutral, and thus does not qualify. He's not the type that feels sorry for a beggar and gives him gold; he's the type that beheads the beggar in public because the beggar was stealing bread.

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"Lawful Stupid" was being used in a tongue-in-cheek sense, since so many people have referred to Miko with that cliched term above. What I meant is that Cuthbert is "LG" in the same way that Miko is "LG"... i.e., super-zealous and not so "good", but behaves as if he were. Cuthbert's ethos is all about judging people as if he were the highest and most "good" moral authority, despite the fact that he isn't.

Wolfwood2 said:

Is this some kind of double-secret parody post?

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No, not really. I was comically exaggerating, but I did have a point. But at the risk of going off on a tangent, in programs, books, novel and – yes – comic strips where forgiveness and redemption are dealt with, they are ill-used. Someone, after directly or indirectly causing a lot of havoc, death and so forth has only to say “oops” or “I meant well” and automatically all is forgiven and the character is redeemed. I can’t point to anything right now, ‘cause, well, I’m lazy and don’t want to do the research to back the point up. But that is what I see when Faith (of BtVS) is redeemed and forgiven, when Vader is redeemed and forgiven, when Miko is redeemed and forgiven…

Gez said:

If I were an admin, I would damn you forever to banishment for your failure at spelling the word "cheap."

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I don’t know what your talking about. It is totally spelled right in my post.

RangerWickett said:

I forgive you for being so grumpy.

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(Grumpy bites Ranger)

Argent Silvermage said:

Isn't it possible that Miko saves Roy?

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Dead people don't cast spells.

Tell that to Xykon...

(Psi)SeveredHead said:

Dead people don't cast spells.

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Hmm... that brings up an interesting question.

I mean, if your character is in the afterlife, presumably they still have the capabilities they had when they were still alive. (at least, wizards can still cast spells after death in Rich's world)

So could a wizard use a wish to bring himself back to life?

Oh, and I bet Miko is going to be raised as a superpowerful undead. You know, one of those skeletal knights with fire. Evil fire of doom. With hair that's made of black flames.

The flames are also on fire.

Dark Dragon said:

While I agree on that one, a rules lawyer wouldn't: as long as a PC can speak, he is not unconcious and thus may be able to act, i.e. cast spells (unless not otherwise being disabled).
That's why I was wondering. /offtopic

Hm, if Miko was at -3128 hp, she maybe was a deathless Frenzied Berserker?! And her frenzy just elapsed...

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I wager that being caught in an explosion, cut in half, and at -9 HP with the Diehard feat or somesuch, would result in rather serious penalties on any Concentration checks to attempt spellcasting.

Voadam said:

I've never heard that but I'm not an expert on the good planes. Any sources saying such?

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Soon tells Miko, when she asks if she's a paladin again, that atonement requires one to first acknowledge that they had been wrong. Since Miko never accepted the fact that she did wrong (she still thinks she's perfect and incapable of being wrong), she cannot receive atonement and renewed paladinhood. She must first admit to having broken her paladin oaths and commited evil, before she can be forgiven and all that. And Miko is uncompromising, therefore it will never happen.

I figure Miko ends up in Arcadia. She might not have done enough evil to warrant being sent to Mechanus instead of Arcadia, after being a paladin for so long.

Slife said:

Hmm... that brings up an interesting question.

I mean, if your character is in the afterlife, presumably they still have the capabilities they had when they were still alive. (at least, wizards can still cast spells after death in Rich's world)

So could a wizard use a wish to bring himself back to life?

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Dead souls become Petitioners on whatever Outer Plane they wind up on. Petitioners lose their spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

Some undead, of course, retain their abilities from life, but then, undead creatures don't pass on, they linger in the Material or Ethereal to cause trouble until someone destroys them. The Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard were some sort of positive-energy-fueled undead, kept from passing on to Mount Celestia until their duty protecting the sapphire was finished. Under the circumstances I'm quite certain Miko wasn't about to become a Ghost-Martyr, but rather pass on to an Outer Plane.

Arkhandus said:

Dead souls become Petitioners on whatever Outer Plane they wind up on. Petitioners lose their spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

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Apparently not in the OOTSverse, since we see Roy's dead dad casting spells

Arkhandus said:

I wager that being caught in an explosion, cut in half, and at -9 HP with the Diehard feat or somesuch, would result in rather serious penalties on any Concentration checks to attempt spellcasting.

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Not bad for a human. </bishop>