Do you pull the chain?

fanboy2000 · Jul 2, 2010

Wolf1066 said:
To my way of thinking, the chain would not open the secret door directly - waaaay too obvious.

I'm curious why people seem to consider this a given. Nothing else in the room seems to open the door. I understand it's poor security design, but maybe the person who built or designed the dungeon wasn't thinking security, but just decoration/niftiness. People do strange and unoptional things all the time.

pawsplay · Jul 2, 2010

Doug McCrae said:
I voted yes without even reading the first post. Ofc you pull the chain, it's there, you have to. Why has the GM put it there if not to be pulled? A test for the unwary? Test for the dull, more like.

Imo, rpgs are not a test to determine the 'superior' and 'inferior' player. They are entertainment.

People killing themselves with obvious traps does sound pretty entertaining.

"Tell me, again, what good thing you expected to have happen when you pulled the obvious lever in front of the secret door? Maybe some candy?"

FireLance · Jul 2, 2010

pawsplay said:
"Tell me, again, what good thing you expected to have happen when you pulled the obvious lever in front of the secret door? Maybe some candy?"

"I don't know. Something amazing, I guess."

Zelligars Apprentice · Jul 2, 2010

To put some perspective on this...

This is an anecdote from a real game I played. Party walks into a room and all of the doors slam shut. We can't get them opened again. There is a big display on the wall showing numbers counting down from 10. There is also a big button next to the display. There is nothing else in the room. When the button is pressed, it resets the counter back to 10.

We spent a huge amount of time using all sorts of resources trying to figure out how to get out of the room, all the while pushing the button to prevent it from reaching zero. We weren't high enough level or properly equipped to blast the walls or dig our way out.

Finally, after much debate and argument, and not having any other ideas, we let the counter go, and resigned ourselves to whatever horrible fate awaited us. So, after all of that, what happened when the counter reached zero?

The doors opened.

FireLance · Jul 2, 2010

Zelligars Apprentice said:
This is an anecdote from a real game I played. Party walks into a room and all of the doors slam shut. We can't get them opened again. There is a big display on the wall showing numbers counting down from 10. There is also a big button next to the display. There is nothing else in the room. When the button is pressed, it resets the counter back to 10.

We spent a huge amount of time using all sorts of resources trying to figure out how to get out of the room, all the while pushing the button to prevent it from reaching zero. We weren't high enough level or properly equipped to blast the walls or dig our way out.

Finally, after much debate and argument, and not having any other ideas, we let the counter go, and resigned ourselves to whatever horrible fate awaited us. So, after all of that, what happened when the counter reached zero?

The doors opened.

I must remember this for the next time I'm running a game and haven't prepared enough material.

And go post this in Obryn's gauntlet thread!

Jhaelen · Jul 2, 2010

Man in the Funny Hat said:
Well yes of COURSE the chain gets pulled, but...

What I object to is the fact that you assume the objective in the dungeon doesn't ALWAYS mean searching every room, every, corridor, leaving no blank, unexplored space on a map short of planning to return later to complete that very task. No job is finished until the paperwork is done - and that includes ensuring that the map displays every explored nook and cranny - and even then there's the possibility of not believing we've found everything and going over it all again.

Yes, adventuring is my characters JOB and he's good at it.

But your DM's apparently not good at his job, otherwise, your adventuring days would have been over long ago

Actually, almost every single adventure I create includes something that should not be explored or investigated in detail. It's the way to the overwhelming encounter that should be used 5% of the time (according to the 3e DMG recommendations).

There will always be a more or less obvious warning sign and often (but not always) a way to retreat from the encounter more or less safely but it can also easily lead to the death of at least one pc.

Exploring everything isn't recommended, unless that's the objective of the adventure.

Jhaelen · Jul 2, 2010

Bullgrit said:
It seems that most people would pull the chain/lever, and then declare a resulting death as unfair.

Yup, actually, I just might.

The thing is: The rogue didn't find a trap and there _is_ a secret door. If the rogue trusts in her ability to find traps, she will pull the chain. If she's unsure about her ability, she will pull it anyway, but take some precautions.

As a player I wouldn't expect it to open the secret door _directly_. I would expect it to open an avenue that eventually leads to finding out what's behind the secret door or opening it, though.

I would not expect it to kill the puller outright, though. That would indeed be unfair, imho.

malraux · Jul 2, 2010

FireLance said:
Exactly! And for the record, I see it that the DM is ultimately responible for placing the chain there, because the person or monster who put the chain there was established by the DM in the first place. If he didn't want someone or something that would have created a deadly effect, then he should have given it different abilities, resources or motivations.

I'd argue that a DM has two responsibilities. First, there's the world creation aspect. He needs to create a consistent world with creatures, perhaps some of whom would end up constructing such a dungeon.

Second, the DM has the responsibility of the spotlight. Describing every brick, rock, etc in a dungeon is kinda tedious. The DM needs to mention what is important, interesting, and relevant.

So, if I see a chain in the dungeon, I'm going to presume that the DM has found it to be important, interesting, or relevant. Those all seem like good reasons to pull the chain.

Jhaelen · Jul 2, 2010

malraux said:
So, if I see a chain in the dungeon, I'm going to presume that the DM has found it to be important, interesting, or relevant. Those all seem like good reasons to pull the chain.

Well, maybe the DM just rolled a 837 on a d1000 on his table for random dungeon room accessories which happens to indicate a chain hanging from the ceiling...

Putting (semi-)random stuff in an adventure is a valid DM approach:
It's the players' actions that will determine if the chain is important, interesting, or relevant. If they ignore the chain, so be it. But if they invest a lot of time investigating it, they are obviously intriguied about it and the DM rewards them by making something up on the fly.

Some of the best ideas in my games have been spawned by something like that.

Jeff Wilder · Jul 2, 2010

Isn't having your PC pull the chain "because the DM <whatever>" an example of blatant metagaming?

Why is that okay in this case (if your opinion is that metagaming is usually "not okay")?

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