Hungry Game, New Customers, Inexperienced Chef

I'm a novice DM for novice players who for better or worse will get their first impression of role-playing games from my shaky hands. I wanted to create a thread where I could share my experiences and solicit help in creating a memorable experience, from a community I hold in high regard.

Setup
This venture was born of my selfish desire to have more gaming in my life. I wanted it to be with friends and the prospect of juggling 6 adult schedules was discouraging, so I invited two couples (and my awesome lady) to play D&D with me, hoping it would be easier to schedule (it has been). The catch? Only one player at the table has played an RPG prior. More than anything, I want to give my players the kind of experience that kept me coming back to the gaming table again and again. Now, some games in, my inexperience terrifies me. I've only DM'd a session or two in all my years as a casual player and have no reason to think I have any particular skill at it.

The Players
I'm lucky that all of them are at least familiar with other forms of gaming.

• Dodgeon - M Dwarf Cleric - IRL videogame designer that has played a few games of D&D 3e
• Vinna - F Half-Elf Paladin - IRL accountant married to Dodgeon's player that occasionally plays videogames and M:tG with her husband
• Lycan - M Dragonborn Warlord - IRL videogame designer married to Obrie's player
• Obrie - F Eladrin wizard - IRL nanny living with Lycan's player that plays a wide variety of casual videogames
• Moragwen - F Halfling Rogue - IRL scientist living with yours truly that occasionally plays videogames

The Campaign
Because my group is so unfamiliar with the world of Dungeons and Dragons, I wanted to give the players a lens through which they could understand the universe and contextualize their experience. I came up with a campaign creation exercise that would convert stories they knew to the world of D&D. The end result is a campaign based on a mixture of The Hunger Games and a cartoon called Road Rovers.

In this campaign, a Capitol city is corrupt with power acquired by the strict control of powerful magic. It saps the resources of 12 surrounding districts with an iron fist. The government of the Capitol commits pathological abuses of power, the most notorious of which is an annual event called the Hunger Games, in which a male and female youth (Tributes) are chosen by lottery from each district to participate in blood sports for the amusement of the Capitol's citizens. Tributes are organized into four groups that then compete in brutal challenges staged by the Capitol, sometimes against each other, until only one tribute remains.

The 5 players start as one of these groups. The 6th member of their group is a (NPC) human boy named Meeka. The players will hopefully be the first contestants to ever escape the games. Escaping the games will empower the districts to rebel, and the players will be pursued by the Capitol, which hopes that crushing them will also quell an incursion. The Capitol is infested by Rakshasa (a dash of Road Rovers), and the adventurers will discover ties on themselves to the Mark of Canis a secretive, dog-flavored power source that will help them uproot the naughty kitties.

My Experience So Far
Unfortunately, I've underestimated a lot of things that have made the experience thus far mixed, and I fully expect more fumbles (hence the appeal to you). Following is a description of my first three sessions.

Session 1
The goal of this session was to get players familiar with combat, create the campaign, and build characters. Combat started with a generic setup (they had to save a baby from some kobolds) so that character creation choices made later would have some context.

• The good: the players liked the story and freedom to interact with it so my worry that only tactical combat would be appealing was unfounded, and dinner was a big hit. We've been doing this pot luck style and having couples over to chat and eat might be more appealing than the game itself so far.
• The bad: I sorely underestimated how complex combat would be. I thought I could wing it and familiarize everyone with combat ideas and it would all go pretty quickly, but it took the entire evening just to run one combat session, and going through different options and concepts was taxing. It wasn't all bad, and one great-rolling player tore up the playfield, but the sheer length of time probably left the impression that the game is slooow. The next two (!) sessions didn't help that impression.

Session 2
The goal of this session was to create the campaign and build characters, since we didn't get to it the week prior. I ran my campaign creation exercise so they could participate in its creation, and contextualize character choices.

• The good: I thought the campaign creation exercise was really fun. Everyone seemed to enjoy sharing cartoons, books, and movies they love, and everyone got to participate in building the world they're going to play in. They already know some things that might happen, and I can use those expectations to surprise them.
• The bad: I also sorely underestimated character creation. I was surprised at how complex it was for one DM to guide five new players through all the options available to everyone (this was before the new Red Box was released, and we only used the PHB). I wanted them to experience character creation because it helps you bond with your character, but we only made it halfway through the character creation process and by the end of the night, everyone had a dead look in their eyes.

Session 3
The goal of this session was to finish making characters, intro the world, and have an encounter or two.

• The good: (1) everyone finished their characters; the relief was palpable. (2) Even after that complex process, they were excited by the sheet of bonus XP they could get for completing different parts of their character's backgrounds; I think I have role-players in my group, which makes me happy. On the sheet, I ask for two secrets that they keep from each other, that I can lace into future adventures. (3) They seemed interested in the campaign setup. You can read about their first adventure here.
• The bad: We had to quit right before we had our first combat encounter. We are now three sessions with only one combat encounter. Ouch. I feel like a failure as a DM, and I only hope I can make up for it with my novice skills in upcoming sessions.

Lessons Learned
If I were to do it all again, I would...

• Introduce combat more carefully - plan how to most-clearly unfold information and focus on the smallest set of critical concepts possible rather than winging it.
• Do the campaign creation exercise again - I loved it; everyone got to participate, it's personal, and the world isn't an empty box.
• Greatly simplify character creation - reduce choices to something similar to the new Red Box, but for a group.
• Do pot lucks again - it makes it more of a couples event, and may be the one thing giving me room to make mistakes.
• Cut my teeth as a DM with experienced players - (maybe) I wouldn't be adversely affecting their opinion of the game, and I could learn where my strengths and weaknesses are.

The biggest problem might be how slow the game is. As streamlined as 4e is, I find myself wishing the combat rules were simplified even further. The amount of time between game sessions is long enough that rules will be frequently forgotten. It's a shame Essentials came out after we started, since it might have been a good fit us.

Giving Back
Attached are various assets I've created in my time as a player and DM -- meager offerings (some of which (power cards) may be familiar) as thanks to a community I've lurked and participated in for many, many years now.

• Power Cards - pptx - an editable PowerPoint template for Magic-sized power cards, formatted to look like they were ripped from the PHB. I love the look but the CB is undoubtedly more convenient.
• Combat Basics Sheet - pdf - a two-page primer made after my first session to help my players with combat. Page 1 is a summary of combat rules, and page 2 contains every basic actions (including skills in combat), modifier, and condition.
• Player Stats Card - docx - an index card-sized summary of all important player stats, including their skills.
• Character Block - docx - a character sheet formatted to look like a monster stat block. I use this in another campaign I play in, and like how abbreviated it is. It's useful and looks great, but neither automated nor user-friendly.
• Counter Stand Review - video - a review I did for the Litko paper counter stands I'm in love with.
• Hunger Games Campaign - webpage - the bare-bones location of my campaign. Obsidian Portal is amazing; I wish I had it as a kid.
• Campaign Creation Exercise - webpage - the steps I created for developing new campaigns, which I thought were well-suited to an inexperienced group. Also on Obisidian Portal.

Help!
In posts following, I plan to ask for help on upcoming adventures, and would love input from DMs and players alike. At this point I'm thankful they're even willing to come back for more, though I don't know if it's a sign of interest or obligation. Thanks ahead for your help, and stay tuned for new posts.

...

I had a similar problem when introducing 3 new-to-roleplaying women who comprise my current group. In retrospect I would have introduced combat in stages...

This could be portrayed in-game as vignettes of the characters as younger version of themselves, just starting out in their respective classes.

Stage 1: Have 2 EASY fights with minions and maybe 1 standard monster and have the characters only have access to their 2 At-wills.

Stage 2: Have 2 EASY fights involving minions and maybe 2 or 3 standard monsters. Allow the players access to their Encounter powers. Involve some basic terrain features: tables, low walls, rubble. Introduce Charging and Combat Advantage, Saving Throws.

Stage 3: Have 1 AVERAGE fight using minions, standards and maybe Artillery, Brutes and/or Lurkers. Introduce SOMETHING COOL terrain: flaming brazier that can be knocked over to damage monsters, chandeliers to swing on, pit o' acid, high place to push monsters off of. Allow the use of the Daily. Introduce Bullrush, Stealth rules, Grabbing.

Stage 4: As per Stage 3, but a DIFFICULT fight with an Elite and Soldiers perhaps. Revisit any rules players have difficulty with AND are interested in. No point in going over stuff the players are bored with.

Make sure to use combats sparingly at first, as the roleplaying it what seems to inspire your players. (Mine too)

Good luck!

EDIT: Even though you have already introduced them to combat, I would still continue with stage 1 combats until your combats go quickly... with new players its more important that they have fun than to necessarily follow the leveling/encounter progression dictated by the rules.

Solicitation 1

I'd love input on my next session. I'm new at this campaign creation thing and can get overwhelmed quickly at details. I truly try to keep things small, but worry about flying by the seat of my pants.

So Far
The players have been chosen by lottery to participate in the Capitol's Hunger Games. They were collared (giving dog treatment (Road Rovers!)) in a way that prevents them from passing certain portals or borders and restricted to a surprisingly comfortable living area beneath the city's Colosseum. They met each other in this living space. Meeka, the single NPC from their group, is clearly terrified of his situation because he is not the exceptional warrior the players (peculiarly!) are. No one else interacts with the adventurers in their first night under the Colosseum but the Avox (mute servants) and a chef, who tells them they should get their rest as he leaves the area.

The next day, they awake to the rumble of the Colosseum above their heads. They are met by guards and escorted to an area to choose weapons and meet two NPCs that are supposed to help them (from here on): Effie Trinket, a fluffy regional representative and Shepherd, a weathered regional games master, who is supposed to help the adventurers (if they survive their first challenge). They also glimpse another authoritative Games figure who looks classically sinister (triangle eyebrows, white goatee, fancy clothes), as well as a look at other contestants in the general area -- of various race. Shepherd only has enough time to tell them to "show them everything you've got," and "stick together," before they are lifted up towards the roaring crowds. Then everything goes black and silent, and they regain their senses in a silent cave, at dusk, with hissing goblins approaching.

Help Wanted
Last night I read in the DM's Kit book that one of the bad things you can do is railroad, and flashes of the player's collars and being imprisoned made the color drain from my face and a lump catch in my throat. But part of the reason they chose this setting is because they wanted to experience the games and if I try to railroad to it later, it strikes me as far more restrictive. Isn't one of the scenarios in the DMG one where the adventures try to escape from being imprisoned? I'm trying to remain calm.

For upcoming adventures, here are the brainstorm elements I'm juggling with that I would love some input on:

The Encounter
The adventurers' first encounter is against the goblins and a bugbear -- ripped from the new Red Box, actually -- with one goblin replaced by minions. I thought about surrounding the goblins with a weapon-disintegrating black mist to scare the players, who can knock out the minions for their (immune) weapons. However, after seeing the last post, I'm tempted to keep the entire scenario extremely simple, removing possibly the minions, the mist, and the bugbear. Thoughts?

As a side note, the encounter is located in the Colosseum, but the PCs are caught in a powerful illusory spell that makes them think they are in a cave at dusk. This element of confusion and surprise is a theme in the books, where it's hard to tell what is real and safe or a lie and dangerous. It will be revealed after the encounter ends that they were in the Colosseum all along, and have killed some gladiator-slaves of the Capitol.

Adventure Elements
Here are the elements I'm trying to juggle:

• The major quest is to escape the Hunger Games, though the party may only know to survive, for now. They know, however, that only one Tribute survives each year and I might make quests really clear by having them write it down. Shepherd may also tweak their goals (see below).
• There are two major forces at play: the rakshasa and a secretive freedom fighters that oppose them. The rakshasa are probably aware that freedom fighters are in their midst, but may not know their specific plans.
• There is another force in the world: a defunct, dog-flavored Order that the players will revive to bring the Road Rovers flavor the players asked for in campaign creation. The Order was an obscure philosophy and power source loyal to the good gods, that shepherded the mortal races. The rakshasa partly gained control of the Capitol by squelching the Order, though this knowledge may be extremely limited.
• Shepherd is tied to the freedom fighters and the Order. There is something about this Hunger Games that makes it a perfect time to strike if only he could find the right group of Tributes to lead. He hopes to pass on knowledge or power of the Order to help the Tributes to escape, disrupting the Hunger Games, and using it as a symbol of defiance to instigate an uprising in the districts.
• The players have some nasty shackles. The collars are a magic item that not just restricts movement where the party can go, but also allows their captors to scry on them at all times and "televise" the event to the magically-rich houses of noble families (and acting troupes that reenact the events all around the nation).

My Leaning
One of the challenge locations will be a former ruins of the Order of Canis. Shepherd knows this and wants to task with recovering a relic that will help him rebirth the Order and fight against the Capitol. He also believes it will help the PCs escape the Hunger Games. Once he knows he has a powerful party (1), he must bring them to his cause. After the PCs succeed beyond expectation in the first challenge, he takes them to a private location (2) and explains the nature of their situation, including the function of the collars. Shepherd tells the PCs there is a way to survive the games but first they must understand what is truly at stake. He produces a ritual scroll that will let them see through the illusions of the Capitol. He asks the cleric or wizard to perform it (so the players can roll for how long the effect lasts (in days)). Shepherd explains that they'll be brought before the nobility of the Capitol for interviews before their next challenge, and to keep what they see a secret. His plan is to let the PCs glimpse the rakshasa in their true form, that they can be given the next steps to reviving the Order.

I'm thinking of splitting the Hunger Games into 4 or 5 parts: the current encounter in the Colosseum, a race, a puzzle, an combat situation between the Tribute groups in the ruins Shepherd knows of, and a final challenge that pits the PC party against each other back at the Colosseum. At every point, the members of the other Tribute groups are dwindled. The other Tributes might turn against each other or group with each other, and the challenges might present opportunities for the PCs to help or hurt them.

Does anyone know of a good race skill challenge? I'm thinking chariots through the forest, lots of jumps and rocks and steering rolls, with the chariots breaking down and tracking (or finding shortcuts) on foot, and confronting other groups, if all goes badly. When the second-to-last group crosses the finish line, I think some dire wolves or something will be sent behind to attack the stragglers.

Variables

• In a worst case scenario, the players might want nothing to do with Shepherd. In this case, I'm thinking the freedom fighters will magically bomb the Colosseum in the last challenge, giving the PCs an opportunity to escape in the chaos. However, the players have a lot of incentive to join Shepherd and go along with things to escape the Games, partly because they wanted Road Rovers, and because D&D is new to them and I might have to train them how to "do anything they want."
• To motivate the players in the final fight, I'm strongly considering having the rakshasa bring in and threaten family or friends of the PCs. Even if the PCs escape, they might try to rescue a family member or friend in the chaos, or I can seed some future adventures there.
• Meeka, the NPC in their group, can be a lot of things. He may or may not be excluded from PC meetings with Shepherd, and I can push him in multiple directions, either having him betray the PCs and Shepherd out of fear of the Capitol, saving the group when they least expect it, or both.
• If the PCs make a scene upon discovering the rakshasa, they'll be unconcerned with the trivial task of minimizing the event, but have a lead on what Shepherd is doing. Shepherd will only have one last time to deliver instructions before disappearing, and the freedom fighters will probably find a way to deliver messages or rescue him in the bombing, later.
• If the PCs find the relic Shepherd is looking for, they will gain a Mark of Canis and a new encounter power that lets them transform into a common dog for any duration (think Background power). I like the idea that there are multiple Order of Canis locations, but Shepherd only knows this one. Unfortunately, the only way out of the ruins is how they came, so the Capitol will catch up to them and acquire whatever information is in the area. This will set up a kind of race against time between the PCs and whoever pursues the other locations.

Footnotes

1. Without the players knowing, I like the idea that Shepherd collaborated to influence the selection of names from the lottery, hence the players' unusually extreme power compared to other contestants. This also gives Shepherd an "ends justify the means"-vibe, which the PCs may object to, and I think makes Shepherd more interesting.
2. The collar scrying does not work in regional training areas, so masters can train with their Tributes without accusing each other of cheating.

Thank You!
Even without input from the forums, being able to "think out loud" is really helpful, so thanks. If you have ideas and input that my inexperience leaves me blind to, or input about possible encounters and skill challenges (for the race), I'd be indebted. Thank you!

Grandpa said:

The Encounter
The adventurers' first encounter is against the goblins and a bugbear -- ripped from the new Red Box, actually -- with one goblin replaced by minions. I thought about surrounding the goblins with a weapon-disintegrating black mist to scare the players, who can knock out the minions for their (immune) weapons. However, after seeing the last post, I'm tempted to keep the entire scenario extremely simple, removing possibly the minions, the mist, and the bugbear. Thoughts?

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I think you should remove the mist, but you can keep the minions and the bugbear. Unless the concern is your ability (as the DM) to keep track of the abilities and tactics of a few different types of monsters at the same time, having monsters with different roles and abilities generally makes fights more interesting.

Grandpa said:

I'd love input on my next session.
Help Wanted
Last night I read in the DM's Kit book that one of the bad things you can do is railroad, and flashes of the player's collars and being imprisoned made the color drain from my face and a lump catch in my throat. But part of the reason they chose this setting is because they wanted to experience the games and if I try to railroad to it later, it strikes me as far more restrictive. Isn't one of the scenarios in the DMG one where the adventures try to escape from being imprisoned? I'm trying to remain calm.

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Railroading, especially early on when your and your players are getting a feel for the game, isn't a huge sin. The key piece of advice isn't "Don't railroad". It's respond "Yes, and?" instead of "No." when the players think of things outside what you were prepared for. It's totally cool that you've laid out a bit of a path for them, especially to start.

Once you've gotten a few more games under your belt, and once the campaign has reached a point where it makes more sense for the PCs to do whatever they want, I'd start to maybe worry about railroading. For now, just focus on providing a good, fun game for everyone.

You may also consider fashioning and running encounters in a way that allows individual characters to shine. Or even simply running the encounter in a way that favors each of the character's strengths in turn. You can position minions so that, maybe with your encouragement, the wizard can blast them all to hell. Manuveur enemies to allow the rogue to flank and then gently remind the rogue of the option and the benefits. In my experience if you expose a player to good tactics and then make them the rock star ("Wow, that was awesome. You killed five minions and that swarm would have been a bitch without your burst spells") it is much easier for them learn how to use their character's effectively.

Sorry to spam with two posts in a row.

Railroading... I think with experienced players alot of people get uncomfortable if they feel they are forced into one plot direction. With new players the fact that they can do pretty much anything on a minute-by-minute, round for basis, is so hard to grasp so giving an overall direction to the plot is a bonus.

"You are in a '10x'10" room. There is an upside bucket, a fireplace, and a Golden Globes award on the fireplace mantle"

Withing a few minutes an experienced player has the bucket on his head and is trying to figure how what skill to use to determine the value of the award.

A new player says "Can I pick up the bucket?"

Hi,

I dont think "Railroading" is all that bad in this instance, we played a similiiar 3.5 game as slaves of drow, we eventually formed an alliance with some dwarves and used our knowledge of the city and it's inhabitants to enable them to destroy the place. The rail roading was essential to fit everyones character into the setting and provide a main thread to the story. The key was we had absolute fredom to achieve our goals in any way we could think of. It seems you are in a similiar position.

Regarding actual combats there have been many fine suggestions here already to show them what they can do, depending on the people and ego giving himts on what would be a good move would be a good idea, you could even had out hint cards they hand in when they want some help. There by restricting the amount of time spent advising people. Also you could give out bonus exp for using specific combat tactic succesfully in an encounter, tailoring the encounters to the manouvers you want the players to use.

First of all, thanks a ton for posting this. I recently started DMing again after a break of about 10 years and it is very hard and very stressful. I'm not even sure if my players are having fun or not. It's nice to hear that I'm not alone in worrying if I'm doing it right.

I'm running what I planned on making a very sandbox oriented campaign for a group of mostly new players. However, the point Grabuto138 made about new players was spot on for my group. They generally jumped at the first plot hook I dangled and ended up running through my encounters in a fairly straightforward manner. Given that you worked closely with your group to come up with your campaign, I wouldn't worry too much that you are railroading them. It just wouldn't be the Hunger Games without the characters captured and forced to fight.

In terms of combat being slow, my combats take at least an hour each and from what I've read online that's actually average. To speed things up I mainly concentrate on what I can control: how long the enemies take. I try to fit every creature for the encounter on to one or two sheets and print them out beforehand. I even make a block that contains nothing but monster defenses so I can respond to player attacks quickly with "hit" or "miss" (Or hopefully something more flavorful). Three different types of enemy is about my limit, beyond that I have trouble keeping track of them all.

To help the players go quickly, I try to make terrain and all the enemies very clear at the start. I also allow players to change their mind after they move and take advice from the other players at the table. I'll even offer advice myself if a player narrates what they are trying to accomplish, I'll tell them how they can do it within the rules. This could make combat slower at times, but if players aren't as afraid of making a mistake they tend to make up their minds a lot faster.

I can't help you with running skill challenges. I haven't yet run a real one, I just don't like how abstract the X success before Y failures thing is. I also dislike how it can reward players for doing nothing. Instead I'll just set up a series of skill checks, each of which has a specific success and failure consequence. Sometimes, if the situation is time-sensitive, I'll go around the table and ask each player what they are doing (and the response of "Nothing" is basically treated the same as a failure).

Good luck out there!

Thanks for the replies. Yesterday was busy but all of the responses really help.

FireLance said:

I think you should remove the mist... Unless the concern is your ability (as the DM) to keep track of the abilities and tactics...

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Thanks, I plan on removing it now. It sounds like an overreach on my part to make the games seem unpredictable and deadly but may just be too much for my newbies. I also hoped it would get me out of a bind because I revealed the enemy before the PCs made it out of the caves and the intended battleground is out there. I can bring up the poor vision within the cave (isn't the torch-like light spell -2 concealment?) but this might also seem harsh; I'll probably just deal, as my first unintended sequence of events.

Destil said:

Railroading, especially early on when your and your players are getting a feel for the game, isn't a huge sin....

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Your comments on railroading made me feel much better about how the game is starting. It can be difficult to parse which aspects of the game are problems my players would have with any DM and which are due to my inexperience. Simply focusing on enjoying the role of DM will probably be the most helpful, and being able to think out loud here helps.

Grabuto138 said:

You may also consider fashioning and running encounters in a way that allows individual characters to shine...

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This strikes me as both true and easy to forget in the middle of things. For the first fight, just keeping several enemies together provides some fodder for both the dragonborn and the wizard. Actually, those two are playing a couple in-game (in addition to real life), so focus on her in narrative might be fun for the couple if the dragonborn gets a higher initiative and wipes out the minions with his dragon breath. Maybe I'll be sneaky and fudge the initiative position of the minions so at least 3 of them wind up in a good blast position for him.

Grabuto138 said:

A new player says "Can I pick up the bucket?"

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This is so true, and something I think my group is still grappling with.

Caragaran said:

Also you could give out bonus exp for using specific combat tactic succesfully in an encounter, tailoring the encounters to the manouvers you want the players to use.

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This stuck out at me, almost like per-battle "achievements" that in turn help them learn the game. I could honestly even set one for each party member (wizard blasts-multiple, leader does some helpy-thing (uh...), rogue does sneak attack damage, healer heals, paladin marks) that highlight their core abilities. In fact, since they might already be swimming in XP for doing their backstories, I can probably use Karma Points as incentive. These points are my only house rule (to combat bad-roll frustration and discourage needless rest) I added that lets them earn points for not hitting anything (earn 1) with an attack roll or finishing encounters (earn 4, then 3,2,1) that can be exchanged for +1 roll bonuses (cost 1) or an action point (cost 5), and the players like getting glass beads.

Emerald Hawk said:

First of all, thanks a ton for posting this. I recently started DMing again after a break of about 10 years and it is very hard and very stressful. I'm not even sure if my players are having fun or not. It's nice to hear that I'm not alone in worrying if I'm doing it right.

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I agree. I'm glad I'm not the only one. Your combat insights are appreciated. And...

Emerald Hawk said:

I can't help you with running skill challenges... I just don't like how abstract the X success before Y failures thing is. I also dislike how it can reward players for doing nothing.

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Skill challenges also strike me as awkward and underdeveloped. My impression from reading all over the web is that their usefulness varies drastically by group and approach, and in the game I play skill challenges come with hiccups and disappointment.

That said, gutted, they strike me as a handy skeleton for improvisation. When a situation worthy of a challenge arises, all I have to do is dream up a worst-case scenario for the situation and wing two stages of deterioration (I now have 3 failures), and the players flesh things out with ideas for story-and-rolling through the event. The only remaining job is coming up with reasonable DCs.

What I like about skills is giving players a safe way to participate in storytelling. Role-playing is intimidating but just describing, "you're free to do anything, but whenever you're not sure what to do or say, skills are ideas for interacting with the world," already has my players asking if they can use History checks to learn about the Hunger Games, or Intimidate to make sure Meeka stays at arms length from their girlfriend. This brings me joy.

I also worry about players sitting back in challenges, and am still trying to dream up a satisfying mechanical incentive that motivates the behavior I want, like group XP bonuses for each player that participates. For these situations a skill challenge needs an announcement, but I suspect my players will love writing down quests (like the Red Box has you do) and noting challenges like "Persuade the King" or "Win the Race" with the above stipulation will probably be okay.