D&D 5E 5e Fang dragon - Draining Bite ability.

Hi all.

I'm busy converting my 3.5e Night Below campaign to 5e at the moment and in it I have an adult Fang Dragon (not originally in Night Below). I wonder if you could look over my Draining Bite ability and let me know what you think. I've based it on the Weakening Breath weapon ability from an adult Gold dragon in the 5e MM pg. 114.


Draining Bite:
An adult Fang Dragon does not have a breath weapon, but its bite drains Constitution. Any creature bitten by the Fang Dragon must succeed on a DC 21 Constitution saving throw or have disadvantage on Constitution-based attack rolls, Constitution checks, and Constitution saving throws for 1 minute. Any extra hit points gained by Constitution/level are lost. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.

As the Fang Dragon isn't able to effect everyone in 60' cone with his bite like the Gold dragon can, I wonder if the Fang Dragon Draining bite ability as I've outlined above is too weak and if so what changes should I make to keep it balanced. Should I mimic the Shadow's ability from the MM pg. 269 which does necrotic damage, where the target's Strength score is reduced by 1d4 and the target dies if this reduces its Strength to 0. Otherwise, the reduction lasts until the target finishes a short or long rest?

Many thanks for your time.

[MENTION=15927]ppward[/MENTION] Also was running an adaptation of Night Below for 5e! Good times!

My suggestion is that you look to the vampire's bite as a model for the Fang Dragon. IIRC correctly, the original AD&D Fang Dragon permanently drained hit points which the Fang Dragon gained. That sounds like it calls for directly stealing the 5e vampire's bite attack.

More specifically, it does the last bit of your Draining Bite ("any extra hit points gained by Constitution/level are lost") without the calculation headache. 5e is meant to be easy to run at the table, no need to complicate it.

There are no Constitution-based attacks in 5e, so that part of Draining Bite is superfluous.

I really don't think disadvantage on Constitution checks and saving throws is necessary is you do the vampire's bite thing I mentioned, but you could always include that if you feel it's important. One thing I would encourage you to keep aware of is that if there's no Recharge limit on the Fang Dragon's bite (I'm assuming there isn't), and the save vs. its bite is Constitution, and it can inflict disadvantage on CON saves, well then you have a nasty feedback loop that will terrify players!

Quickleaf said:

[MENTION=15927]ppward[/MENTION] Also was running an adaptation of Night Below for 5e! Good times!

My suggestion is that you look to the vampire's bite as a model for the Fang Dragon. IIRC correctly, the original AD&D Fang Dragon permanently drained hit points which the Fang Dragon gained. That sounds like it calls for directly stealing the 5e vampire's bite attack.

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Agreed. And yep, the original AD&D fang dragon drained hit points (but only if the attack roll was a 20 and if the victim failed a save vs. death magic). Lost hit points could be restored if enough cure spells were cast on the victim, but all within a number of rounds equal to the victim's Con score, or the loss was permanent.

Thanks for that.

I agree with you and I'm all for keeping it simple as that was the reason for moving from 3.5e in the first place. I just find it hard to let go of the 3.5e stat shackles, having moved to it from Ad&d when it was first released. Simple is better. Ok, so in taking your advice this is what it looks like now.

Draining Bite:
Melee Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target.
Hit: 17 (2d10 + 6) piercing damage plus 10 (3d6) necrotic damage. The target's hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the necrotic damage taken and the dragon regains hit points equal to that amount . The reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest.

Nice and simple

As I am modeling my Fang dragon on am adult White Dragon (CL 13), I will post up my completed stats when I am done for you all to ponder/audit and in the hope that it helps anyone else looking online (as I was) for a converted stat block of a Fang Dragon.

Many thanks to you all.

Hi all.



Ok, here as promised is my take on an adult fang dragon (with some help from the posters above).

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He is based on an adult white dragon and I gave him an extra point to his AC (as the Fang dragon is meant to have a tough spiky hide) and I also gave him a + 2 to his STR over the white dragon (as he is meant to be more a melee combatant). I also thought about giving him something extra in his tail ability (due to the spiked tail in his description in earlier editions) but slapped myself and dismissed it as a 3.5e notion and left it simple.

Credit to the help of the above posters and also a massive shout out to FallenWyvern for the epic Monster Making Tool (which you can find here: http://thegeniusinc.com/dd-monster-maker-download/).

I'm looking forward to the community's thoughts overall. Let me know how you think he stacks up.

You have my praise

This is really close to the Ancient Fang Dragon I did for my Age of Worms campaign. The only thing that I would add would be a Constitution saving throw to determine whether the maximum HP is reduced by an amount equal to the necrotic damage. The DC should be the same as the breath weapon DC for the white dragon.

EDIT: Here is what I had.

Creatures: Xyzanth, Ancient Fang Dragon. Use Ancient GreenDragon (MM 93) with the following modifications:
 No breath weapon.
 The Bite attack does 19 (2d10 + 8) piercing damage plus 14 (4d6) necrotic damage. A creature that is hit must succeed on a DC 22 Constitution saving throw or have its hit point maximum reduced by the amount of necrotic damage taken by the bite attack. This reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest. The target dies if this reduces the hit point maximum to 0.
 The Bite action may be performed as a legendary action.
 Sound Imitation: A fang dragon can mimic any voice or sound it has heard. Listeners must succeed at a DC21 Wisdom (Insight) check to detect the ruse.

Thanks for your input Tormyr.

With regard to the fang dragon's bite attack getting a saving through this is how I looked at it.

When you look at the amount of damage the adult white dragon's breath weapon deals on a failed save i.e. 54 (12d8), I'm now concerned that my Fang dragon is much weaker than the White dragon due to his lack of breath weapon even with no save.

Perhaps I should find more a middle ground with the bite's necrotic damage?

There are a few choices IMO;

1. The bite has no save but I increase the necrotic damage dealt from 10 (3d6) (as I have it in my stat block above) to 24 (6d8) (this amount is half the damage from a failed saving throw from an adult white dragon's breath attack). This means the dragon is always doing necrotic damage... "Fear the dragon bite..."

2. The bite has a CON save DC19 (like the adult white dragon's breath weapon) and if failed deals 54 (12d8) necrotic damage to keep it in line with the white dragon's breath ability although the breath ability can effect "everyone in a 60' cone"...."Fear the dragon bite...(but only if you fail your save)..."

3. (Tormyr's option) The Bite attack does 19 (2d10 + 8) piercing damage plus 14 (4d6) necrotic damage. A creature that is hit must succeed on a DC 22 Constitution saving throw or have its hit point maximum reduced by the amount of necrotic damage taken by the bite attack. This reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest. The target dies if this reduces the hit point maximum to 0.


Choices, choices. Which option would you say works best?

I like the the "Sound Imitation" option you have in your version Tormyr and may add it to my build if you don't mind.

As always thanks for taking the time to help out on this.

My stats were from an ancient dragon. Your numbers are better for the adult dragon (DC 19 and 3d6 necrotic damagedamage).

Fang dragons are super quick, so I balanced the lack of breath weapon by letting bite be a legendary action. 3 extra bites a round suddenly gets scary.

EDIT: Don't know why I remember the fang dragon as being super fast. I went back and reread the 3.5 Fang dragon and found these things to be unique to it:
* Con drain on bite instead of breath weapon (5e uses max HP drain instead)
* Teeth, claws, and scales are super sharp, so weapons do 1 size class bigger of damage (presumably to make up for the lack of breath weapon).
* Sound imitation ability.

So we are working on what to do about the bite. Weapon attacks are interesting though. There is no difference in damage dice between an Ancient, Adult, and Young White Dragons. The damage difference between them is in their breath weapons and Strength modifiers. So we can add a damage die to each of them (+1d10 bite, +1d6 claw, +1d8 tail), and that helps DPR, but it reduces the threat of the bite from the 3.5 version. 7 (2d6) Con damage is enough to kill PCs with low Con scores with a high enough roll. 5e doesn't really work that way. It generally gives PCs more chances rather than dealing 1 hit kills.

What CR did you actually want the Adult Fang Dragon to be? You started with the Adult White Dragon with a CR of 13. That CR does not take into account the tail attack as a legendary action 3 times per round. The CR then become 17 if the tail attacks are factored in. The CR that you actually want will help determine where to distribute the fang dragon's damage, and giving it the bite as a legendary action will compensate for the lack of breath weapon and have more loss of max HP.

EDITEDIT: So I took another look at DPR. If you keep all weapon attacks the same on the Adult White Dragon except change the cold damage to 3d6 necrotic on the bite (an ancient would have 4d6), and give it a bite as a legendary action that costs two actions, the DPR will be almost the same. The CR would end up at 16. Making the bite only cost 1 legendary action would make the monster a CR 18.

Hi. Thanks for your help.

Ok, I did want my Fang dragon to be CR13.
I hope I've got this right now and I've popped his stat block in below for you to look over.

His DCR is 10 and his OCR is 15.

OCR Breakdown.
Bite = 17
Claws x2 = 26(13x2)
Legendary (Tail)x3 = 45(15x3)
----
Total DPR = 88

I lowered his AC and STR stat back in line with the CR13 white dragon and didn't go with the bite in the Legendary action section as it would raise his DPR and his CR above where I wanted him at this stage. But will keep it in mind for a tougher fang dragon challenge at a later stage when the party are ready for it.

So DCR 10 + OCR 15 Average = CR12.5 rounded up to CR13.

So, does he look right now for a CR13 creature? My only remaining issue now is that the white dragon's breath weapon effects ALL in a 60' cone and I'm wondering if the necrotic damage equates to this. Right enough the breath weapon has a recharge (5-6) where the bite does not so I guess they are even enough.

Thanks again for all your help.



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ppward said:

Hi. Thanks for your help.

Ok, I did want my Fang dragon to be CR13.
I hope I've got this right now and I've popped his stat block in below for you to look over.

His DCR is 10 and his OCR is 15.

OCR Breakdown.
Bite = 17
Claws x2 = 26(13x2)
Legendary (Tail)x3 = 45(15x3)
----
Total DPR = 88

I lowered his AC and STR stat back in line with the CR13 white dragon and didn't go with the bite in the Legendary action section as it would raise his DPR and his CR above where I wanted him at this stage. But will keep it in mind for a tougher fang dragon challenge at a later stage when the party are ready for it.

So DCR 10 + OCR 15 Average = CR12.5 rounded up to CR13.

So, does he look right now for a CR13 creature? My only remaining issue now is that the white dragon's breath weapon effects ALL in a 60' cone and I'm wondering if the necrotic damage equates to this. Right enough the breath weapon has a recharge (5-6) where the bite does not so I guess they are even enough.

Thanks again for all your help.



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Defensive CR would be higher than 10. Legendary Resistance adds +90 to its effective Hit Points, bumping it to 290 effective HP (CR 15).