D&D 5E Monk rules question

Cap'n Kobold said:

OK. I am seriously impressed. A renaissance hand crossbow capable of throwing a bolt with the same force as a shortbow would have a draw weight in the 200+lb range. Being able to draw that with a few fingers and juggle the release cylinder into position while holding something as awkward as a sword in your hand is a pretty major feat of power.
What would you say your Strength is in D&D terms?

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A specially designed sword-hilt that doubles as a cocking lever for the crossbow?

thorgrit said:

I have nothing to add on the yes/no front, but if you wanted to allow it but in a less clunky way, allow the hand crossbow to be modified or specially built to be more rugged and have a heavy flat side that could be used as an (improvised?) club? That way it could count as a melee weapon. Or is the d8 of the longsword vs the d6 of martial arts a dealbreaker?

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Aye. Or attach a dagger to the crossbow and use it like a bayonet.

There are definitely alternate solutions the OP can offer his player if he doesn't like the sword juggling.

Oofta said:

You need a free hand to load a crossbow. From https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf



Even before the errata, I would not have allowed it but that's water under the bridge now.

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I was not aware of this Errata but that makes It pretty clear.

Cap'n Kobold said:

OK. I am seriously impressed. A renaissance hand crossbow capable of throwing a bolt with the same force as a shortbow would have a draw weight in the 200+lb range. Being able to draw that with a few fingers and juggle the release cylinder into position while holding something as awkward as a sword in your hand is a pretty major feat of power.
What would you say your Strength is in D&D terms?

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I kind of doubt your seriously impressed by how you followed up your answer. I could be wrong, but the answer seems sarcastic and facetious, but I am going to pretend it was a serious statement and answer it accordingly out of a hopefulness your actually here to talk and not trying to be a jerk for no reason because it hard to tell the inference of text sometimes. So... maybe you did mean it and expect an answer.

Well you are correct that I did not check to see what the draw weight is/was I have not used it much it was a "Fun for a while" purchase and then I had to get ride of the small hay bail I bought form my cousin and was using for Target practice because my wife didn't like it long term. Also mine has a pull assist bar that most of the small hand helds I saw were a equipped with so I am not pulling on both sides to load it. I just pull the hand in the back. I also did not say I was quick, I fact it took me a minute which is not comparable to a 6 second round. My point is/was while difficult I was able to do it, so someone with a crossbow deigned for it and with training could to it better. I did not look up a "renaissance" hand crossbow and don't know what the differences would be. Mine is plastic and metal and I don't have a "release cylinder" is uses a lock for the the bolt like a close pin facing the end which holds the bolt and further in has a peace of metal on a spring that catches the string which I don't have to touch or open to lock since its got "ram" shape to it so when you pull the handle its slides over the release and locks it into place.

As far as IRL strenght vs D&D strength goes I don't have much to go on and its not really a relative number what ever I come up with because I have no measurement in ether for pulling a draw with 2 fingers... but I have seen many people draw compound bows with two fingers long enough to take a shot. I tried with the same bow and could barely pull it back with my hand but that was along time ago.

...The only reference for strength in the real world vs D&D is lift carry weights, with that I can bench 215 lbs, squat 295, but I only safely deadlift 135 which is likely a form issue since I only recently started deadlifting.
I added those 3 together for 645 divide by 3 for an average of 215 for max weight, divide by 3 and multiplied by 2 to get the medium weight since thats the one for one comparison in D&D and divide by 10 (as opposed to multiplying STR by 10 to find encumbrance weight), and get a wild guess of 14 Strength in D&D, alternatively you could just take the dead lift and divide by 10 and say 13 Strength but I figure people are strong in different ways and we are talking about a full body Strength so the average of the 3 major workouts for "defining strength" seemed like a reasonable place to start. Not that any of that means anything. Its just an attempt to answer your question.

ClaytonCross said:

I kind of doubt your seriously impressed by how you followed up your answer. I could be wrong, but the answer seems sarcastic and facetious, but I am going to pretend it was a serious statement and answer it accordingly out of a hopefulness your actually here to talk and not trying to be a jerk for no reason because it hard to tell the inference of text sometimes. So... maybe you did mean it and expect an answer.

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Not particularly facetious, although I did suspect that you might have been talking about a modern toy or small-game handbow rather than one of D&D's tech level and powerful enough to kill larger game or humans effectively.
Quite frankly, while I have a rough idea of the poundage required, I don't know how realistic it would be to be able to apply enough strength to pull that. 200 plus pounds sounds a lot, but I don't know whether it is reasonable for a strong person to be able to exert that in this situation. And not knowing anything about you, you may well be in the strength range capable of doing it.
So I asked.

I did not look up a "renaissance" hand crossbow and don't know what the differences would be. Mine is plastic and metal and I don't have a "release cylinder" is uses a lock for the the bolt like a close pin facing the end which holds the bolt and further in has a peace of metal on a spring that catches the string which I don't have to touch or open to lock since its got "ram" shape to it so when you pull the handle its slides over the release and locks it into place.

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Modern crossbows have a generally wider bow due to better quality control of the metal it consists of. This gives a longer draw length, and thus more power to the bolt. (Or less poundage draw required to achieve a specific power.)
The high poundage required and low relative strength of the materials meant that rather than a dropping pin or channel that the string is pulled down into, a rotating wheel or cylinder was often used.
(As a rough general rule, a full-size crossbow needs to have a poundage of three times that of a bow in order to generate equivalent power.)

As far as IRL strenght vs D&D strength goes I don't have much to go on and its not really a relative number what ever I come up with because I have no measurement in ether for pulling a draw with 2 fingers... but I have seen many people draw compound bows with two fingers long enough to take a shot. I tried with the same bow and could barely pull it back with my hand but that was along time ago.

...The only reference for strength in the real world vs D&D is lift carry weights, with that I can bench 215 lbs, squat 295, but I only safely deadlift 135 which is likely a form issue since I only recently started deadlifting.
I added those 3 together for 645 divide by 3 for an average of 215 for max weight, divide by 3 and multiplied by 2 to get the medium weight since thats the one for one comparison in D&D and divide by 10 (as opposed to multiplying STR by 10 to find encumbrance weight), and get a wild guess of 14 Strength in D&D, alternatively you could just take the dead lift and divide by 10 and say 13 Strength but I figure people are strong in different ways and we are talking about a full body Strength so the average of the 3 major workouts for "defining strength" seemed like a reasonable place to start. Not that any of that means anything. Its just an attempt to answer your question.

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Thank you. Its interesting to see how D&D strength might relate to actual figures that we can relate to.

Cap'n Kobold said:

Not particularly facetious, although I did suspect that you might have been talking about a modern toy or small-game handbow rather than one of D&D's tech level and powerful enough to kill larger game or humans effectively.
Quite frankly, while I have a rough idea of the poundage required, I don't know how realistic it would be to be able to apply enough strength to pull that. 200 plus pounds sounds a lot, but I don't know whether it is reasonable for a strong person to be able to exert that in this situation. And not knowing anything about you, you may well be in the strength range capable of doing it.
So I asked.

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Well... I will take it. At least we are still talking. I recently questioned some one else (who will remain unnamed) as to a mater of them claiming my opinion / questioning their train of thought was disrespectful instead of just part of conversation and they ban me from all there posts instead of pointing out what I said that they considered disrespectful and furthering the conversation, which conversations about D&D is why I thing we are all here. I seem to get misunderstood a lot because I am weird so I try to lean on the side of "if it sounds like they are being a jerk, maybe I read it wronge?" ... Part wrong.... is good enough, lol.

Cap'n Kobold said:

Modern crossbows have a generally wider bow due to better quality control of the metal it consists of. This gives a longer draw length, and thus more power to the bolt. (Or less poundage draw required to achieve a specific power.)
The high poundage required and low relative strength of the materials meant that rather than a dropping pin or channel that the string is pulled down into, a rotating wheel or cylinder was often used.
(As a rough general rule, a full-size crossbow needs to have a poundage of three times that of a bow in order to generate equivalent power.)

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Well, Mine was sold as a "small game hand crossbow" it does have a spot for a scope and I believe it would kill someone but I have no idea what the poundage is. That said I have ... changed interests... not sure if changed is the right word... I have always loved swords more but I was not aware HEMA was a thing until about a year ago and hitting a defenseless post with a sword was not as interesting as shooting a paper target on a bail of hay... Hitting another person with sword who hits back and no one (usually) actually gets hurt kind of makes the crossbow boring.

Any way, I don't really study crossbows and just started REALLY learning about swords but from a historical "how does it work" prospective you have peeked my curiosity on the subject. ...google search... Found one with a looking mechanic similar to mine... but its full size I think. So this might work they way I am talking but you suspect the draw would be too hard to pull with two fingers the way I did mine, and it does not have the loading bar which makes mine easier.

Here is an image of one almost just like mine, but mine is gray. Modern version

Here is a crossbow with a similar lock and kind of what I was thinking of. https://uncrate.com/assets_c/2011/04/medieval-crossbow-thumb-960xauto-12893.jpg

I would love a visual if you can find one like your talking about it just for perspective.... please... I did see some with crank but I closed the tab without thinking to grab the link but obviously that style would not work.

You makes some great points and it does seem that the creators of D&D are in agreement with some if not all of what you said, guessing by the errata Oofta found:

Oofta said:

You need a free hand to load a crossbow. From https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf

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"Ammunition (p. 146). Loading a onehanded weapon requires a free hand"

Cap'n Kobold said:

Thank you. Its interesting to see how D&D strength might relate to actual figures that we can relate to.

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Your welcome... don't ask me to do the other stats I thought about it already and I got nothing. lol. I for half a second thought it would be cool to try and stat me out in D&D but I think I would be better off just letting my friends vote on how they see me as a character... Str 13 , Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 6, Cha 2 .... just guessing. lol

Edit: I was trying to remove the picture and put links only to save space, if anyone know how do/undo that let me know I will. I deleted the attachement statement and its still there so obviously that was not the right way. lol

Cap'n Kobold said:

OK. I am seriously impressed. A renaissance hand crossbow capable of throwing a bolt with the same force as a shortbow would have a draw weight in the 200+lb range. Being able to draw that with a few fingers and juggle the release cylinder into position while holding something as awkward as a sword in your hand is a pretty major feat of power.
What would you say your Strength is in D&D terms?

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Dnd hand crossbows, and rennaiscance hand crossbows from all the reading I’ve done, and noticeably less powerful than a shrotbow.

Definately well below 200lb draw weight.

jaelis said:

He needs to reload the crossbow. And the kensei AC bonus does require a melee weapon.

"you can use it to defend yourself if it is a melee weapon"

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Whelp, there goes any interest I had in the subclass.

Can’t beleive I missed that while building my gunslinger monk.

*Deleted by user*

doctorbadwolf said:

Dnd hand crossbows, and rennaiscance hand crossbows from all the reading I’ve done, and noticeably less powerful than a shrotbow.

Definately well below 200lb draw weight.

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Previous editions of D&D, particularly in the fiction have depicted handcrossbows as more realistic and similar to ones based on D&D's tech level. - Used only as a poison delivery system and regularly being stopped by the cloth of a cloak for example.
Until modern high-quality spring steel, handcrossbows were a novelty toy used for shooting small birds at short ranges, and actually killing even an unarmoured human would be extremely unlikely.

5e handcrossbows however deal comparable damage to a shortbow.