D&D 5E Running High Level 5E is more fun than I thought it would be.

dnd4vr said:

Aren't there other tier 4 superheroes to handle it if it a world-ending threat?

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No, when I'm planning a campaign, there aren't.

I don't know how else to explain it other than for myself, I just find "over-the-top" sort of adventures too far-fetched for fun. I mean, with all the heroes in the world, how the heck did an army of giants ever even get gathered together?

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Yes, a tippyverse where there are 100s or 1000s of level 20 characters does not look at all like a typical D&D game.

Were the current tier 3 and 4 adventures all just asleep at the wheel? If a rift opens and hordes of devils are coming into the world, wouldn't all the heroes in the area band together to stop it? Why is it the party that has to do such things?

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Because they are almost all that there is.

When I'm planning a campaign:
(a) There is a reason why the PCs will power-scale like crazy, and other beings don't.
(b) There is something going on that will require that kind of power-scaling in the background.

I mean, there are going to be powerful beings out there. But all of them will have a reason for being powerful, not "we kept attacking farming goblins and became demigods".

That means when you hit mid tier, you are already extraordinary. And when you hit T4, you are pretty much unique.

There will be immortal beings who rival you in power and the like. But no, Bob over there who went on an adventuring career isn't it. He topped out around level 3-7ish.

The Champion "monster" NPC is an example of a world-renouned combatant that people talk about as being something more than human. People discuss and argue about which god's blood runs in that NPC.

TwoSix said:

How are the PCs going to do that? The only real way to get to a bad guy is to sneak in an object to where the enemy is and then teleport there. Teleporting in blind is a great way to die. The mishap odds are extremely high in 5e, and with Teleport being a 7th level spell, it's not like you can just cast it again.

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High level PCs are exceedingly good at preparation. They can scry and talk directly to their gods. If The Arch-Lich of Deadville is turning all the land to blight, they aren't going to enter room 1 of his dungeon and go room by room for 3 sessions. They are going to research and plan and bampf into his crypt and gank him. I have seen again and again once the PCs hit that power level.

So I don't need folks to tell meit doesn't happen. Icould use some thoughts on how to deal with it or even embrace it.

TwoSix said:

I think there's just a fundamental incompatibility between "I want high level heroes facing high level encounters" and "I want the characters to encounter a proper ratio of world-appropriate encounters to increase verisimilitude." I think with gaming time being finite, you simply can't do both. Based on your game aesthetic concerns, you simply prefer the latter option, and that's fine.

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Yeah, I agree. I think that is why I am planning to limit my game to level 12. That is about the highest you can go where liches and such can still serve as solo BBEG. With 6 PCs, at that point you have a chance against even CR's in the mid-20's. Only the most powerful of beings might be beyond deadly.

Reynard said:

High level PCs are exceedingly good at preparation. They can scry and talk directly to their gods. If The Arch-Lich of Deadville is turning all the land to blight, they aren't going to enter room 1 of his dungeon and go room by room for 3 sessions. They are going to research and plan and bampf into his crypt and gank him. I have seen again and again once the PCs hit that power level.

So I don't need folks to tell meit doesn't happen. Icould use some thoughts on how to deal with it or even embrace it.

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An arch-lich is going to have defenses specifically designed to prevent such intrusions. They ought to be protected against such tactics. Maybe their lair is warded or on top of a ley line that prevents such magics. The smartest ones will have even devised countermeasures (such as an illusion that makes the PCs think they're scrying the lich, when in fact they'll be teleporting into the center of a death trap).

I'd say let it work, but only some of the time. Other times it doesn't or makes things worse (like teleporting inside a death trap). As long as it is an unreliable tool, and therefore you keep them on their toes, there should be no issue.

dnd4vr said:

1. There is no need. That is my point, but most DMs and adventures do so IME.

2. But, the point is, then nothing (or very little) should be encountered on your way there if the more powerful monsters scared off the weaker. And in some instances that makes sense. In others, maybe the powerful monsters employ the weaker ones and they should be there.

But again IME weaker monsters disappear from the world entirely because DMs hand-wave the encounters away. I used to do it myself. I explained to the players, "Yeah, you still encounter bands of goblins while traveling and such, but either they run away or you defeat them without issue, so I am not bothering with it."

Nowadays, that just bothers me. I know playing time is precious, but I am tired of having encounter after encounter be nothing but CR 5 or higher simply because we are 13th level.

Maybe I am just not explaining it well, but there you go.

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OK, I can't discuss what other DMs do or published adventures do. I only DM myself and I never use published adventures. I was just discussing what makes sense to me. I also agree that in some cases the big bad should (and does) employ weaker creatures to its dirty work.

dnd4vr said:

Yeah, I agree. I think that is why I am planning to limit my game to level 12. That is about the highest you can go where liches and such can still serve as solo BBEG. With 6 PCs, at that point you have a chance against even CR's in the mid-20's. Only the most powerful of beings might be beyond deadly.

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Stop general HP bloat at 10th level, then only increase by class as follows (no con mod bonus):

d6 class: +1 HP per level after 10
d8 class: +2 HP per level after 10
d10 class: +3 HP per level after 10
d12 class: +4 HP per level after 10

Keep everything else the same. It makes higher CR monsters more threatening. I might also suggest the follow AC/save adjustments depending on your party. Monsters:

Tier 2: +1 AC/all saves
Tier 3: +2 AC/all saves
Tier 4: +3 AC/all saves

Fanaelialae said:

An arch-lich is going to have defenses specifically designed to prevent such intrusions. They ought to be protected against such tactics. Maybe their lair is warded or on top of a ley line that prevents such magics. The smartest ones will have even devised countermeasures (such as an illusion that makes the PCs think they're scrying the lich, when in fact they'll be teleporting into the center of a death trap).

I'd say let it work, but only some of the time. Other times it doesn't or makes things worse (like teleporting inside a death trap). As long as it is an unreliable tool, and therefore you keep them on their toes, there should be no issue.

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I don't disagree that the BBEG is going to have defenses and such, I am just saying that in my experience a half dozen players with a broad array of high level PC abilities are generally pretty good at finding solutions when it's just me sitting on the other side of the screen. I generally do not like fiat countering as a GM (i.e. just inventing things to stymie the PCs at every turn). Rather, I'll decide villain X has defenses Y in place, and then leave it up to the PCs about how to deal with those things. Sometimes they draw the villain out. Sometimes they summon an army of umber hulks to dig a tunnel into the basement. In any case, it is more common for characters of that power level to choose the time and place of battle, in my experience, which has the effect of allowing them to nova. That in turn means I feel like I need to make sure BBEG's are extra powerful to make them an interesting challenge, but that can lead to "unfair" feeling situations if things go against the PCs.

So I guess what I am asking is in high level games, what are some tools for making sure the PCs have had a few resource draining encounters prior to those set piece showdowns? I like letting them feel smart and strong, and I like challenging set piece battles, and I don't especially like grindy fights meant to chip away at their hit points and spell slots, and all those things feel kind of opposed.

dave2008 said:

Stop general HP bloat at 10th level, then only increase by class as follows (no con mod bonus):

d6 class: +1 HP per level after 10
d8 class: +2 HP per level after 10
d10 class: +3 HP per level after 10
d12 class: +4 HP per level after 10

Keep everything else the same. It makes higher CR monsters more threatening. I might also suggest the follow AC/save adjustments depending on your party. Monsters:

Tier 2: +1 AC/all saves
Tier 3: +2 AC/all saves
Tier 4: +3 AC/all saves

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In our main game, I know the DM bumps proficiency +1 at CR 5, +2 at CR 10, etc. I don't know if he messes with AC or not. But, this main game is also high-power with MCing more AD&D style. For example, my PC is a Cleric/Rogue/Wizard 8/8/8 (equal to 13th character level).

Reynard said:

High level PCs are exceedingly good at preparation. They can scry and talk directly to their gods. If The Arch-Lich of Deadville is turning all the land to blight, they aren't going to enter room 1 of his dungeon and go room by room for 3 sessions. They are going to research and plan and bampf into his crypt and gank him. I have seen again and again once the PCs hit that power level.

So I don't need folks to tell meit doesn't happen. Icould use some thoughts on how to deal with it or even embrace it.

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Well the ToA covered this scenario, so you could do that (basically you can't scry into or teleport into/in the dungeon I think). However, you don't want to limit those abilities 100% of the time. So a couple of other thoughts:

1. The big bad can use the same tactics on the party.
   1. This is particularly true of liches as you can take on down, but they can come back, and then they will put a lot of resources into taking you down.
   2. A network of spys that are tracking the PCs plans & movements
   3. Magic observation
   4. Infiltrators (replace a trusted NPC with doppelganger or similar)
2. The big bad can have minions that they summon in (bonus, lair, or legendary action), or that simply gate, teleport, plane shift, whatever, in to help out or get him/her out.
3. Make the big bad tougher. You can plan, but if you don't have the resources to beat the big bad, you just don't have them. Some easy options:
   1. Max HP
   2. Increase AC & saves: +1 per tier to AC and all saves
   3. Max damage: bring the pain!
   4. Give bonus or legendary move actions (teleport preferably)
   5. Juggernaut. When big bad suffers an effect that would impose the X,Y, Z condition(s) it instead loses it ability to take: bonus actions and/or reactions for the duration instead or loses one use of legendary actions for the duration instead. Helps prevent completely lock down, but doesn't complete nerf the PCs abilities.
4. Lairs: advantageous lairs for the big bad, lair actions, terrain. Mike Shae has some good information on this.
5. Illusion and trickery: some big bads can see a scrying sensor. They can use this to give the PCs false information.

dnd4vr said:

In our main game, I know the DM bumps proficiency +1 at CR 5, +2 at CR 10, etc. I don't know if he messes with AC or not. But, this main game is also high-power with MCing more AD&D style. For example, my PC is a Cleric/Rogue/Wizard 8/8/8 (equal to 13th character level).

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The bonus to saves and AC is important in high CR monsters, mostly for solo monsters, if you have access to resources that increase to hit chances (magic items , spells). If you have a fighter with a +3 sword and the MM assumes no magic items, you need to compensate for that, not to mention bless.