D&D 5E Running High Level 5E is more fun than I thought it would be.

[S'mon]

I don't disagree that the BBEG is going to have defenses and such, I am just saying that in my experience a half dozen players with a broad array of high level PC abilities are generally pretty good at finding solutions when it's just me sitting on the other side of the screen. I generally do not like fiat countering as a GM (i.e. just inventing things to stymie the PCs at every turn). Rather, I'll decide villain X has defenses Y in place, and then leave it up to the PCs about how to deal with those things. Sometimes they draw the villain out. Sometimes they summon an army of umber hulks to dig a tunnel into the basement. In any case, it is more common for characters of that power level to choose the time and place of battle, in my experience, which has the effect of allowing them to nova. That in turn means I feel like I need to make sure BBEG's are extra powerful to make them an interesting challenge, but that can lead to "unfair" feeling situations if things go against the PCs.

So I guess what I am asking is in high level games, what are some tools for making sure the PCs have had a few resource draining encounters prior to those set piece showdowns? I like letting them feel smart and strong, and I like challenging set piece battles, and I don't especially like grindy fights meant to chip away at their hit points and spell slots, and all those things feel kind of opposed.

I'm currently running Book 6 of Rise of the Runelords for Epic-20 5e PCs. It features a lot of 'gating' where the PCs have to work hard just to get anywhere near Runelord Karzoug, the BBEG. The whole point is to reach him in the extradimensional Eye of Avarice before he can escape.

I do recommend looking at the end books of Paizo APs. Their solutions are inadequate for high-magic Pathfinder but work well with mid-magic 5e D&D.

 

[dave2008]

Strange, I've been running level 20 5e for a few years now and never seen this.

He/she mentioned in other posts that his/her opinion is based on their experience in 3e, not 5e.

 

[S'mon]

To be fair I am going of previous experience with high level characters. This is the first time I have run 5E up in higher Tier 3, cusp of Tier 4 so I am trying to get ahead of it. Maybe I am overthinking it?

Yes. High level 5e does not play anything like high level 3e/PF.

 

[Reynard]

Yes. High level 5e does not play anything like high level 3e/PF.

Do you mind expounding upon this a little?

 

[The Green Hermit]

Sorry if I came off as snippy. The isolation is getting to me, man!

The isolation is getting to all of us in one extent or another.

 

[TheDelphian]

Do you mind expounding upon this a little?

I have played both so will give me view of it which may be different than S'Mon.

I think primarily it is about the moving parts of high level play in 3.5/PF. A high level wizard in either is gonna have several 7-9th level spells to launch, which are encounter changing ones. also the layers of buffing they are capable of is tremendous. Just what my 18th level wizard cast each morning was a list of 6-8 spells not including what they cast pre-dungeon/fight the 10 minutes per level stuff added another 10 spells. then if I had time to buff pre-fight it was even more.

I know a dispel etc may knock a lot out but having to deal with the dispel was a stop get the list and go down it as the gm rolled to knock out spells. All this and I wa a GM and highly organized player who knew what everything did and how it interacted with everything else. I did most the work.

Fighters and the like were not a whole lot better with buffs, number of attacks bonuses and stuff floating around the table from other characters abilities etc.


5th means maybe one or two buffs and casters the same level having maybe 3-4 spells in the 7 -9 range not that many per spell level.

Fighters may have multiple attacks but all at the same bonus and a lot less math coming from other sources.

and all this applies to the GM. A Deva/Devil/Demon/Dragon that is a CR 20 in 3.5/PF has a huge amount of different stuff they can do. Even if it boils down to only performing 3-5 rounds before dead / defeated the GM has to figure out from that abundance what they would do.

a CR 20 monster of the same type in 5th edition is simpler and easier to manage.

Now I played both and enjoyed both. this is simply a comparison. If you prefer complicated/indepth rules and choices then 3.5/PF is a better choice.

I am old now and tire easily so prefer 5th edition.

 

[Reynard]

I have played both so will give me view of it which may be different than S'Mon.

I think primarily it is about the moving parts of high level play in 3.5/PF. A high level wizard in either is gonna have several 7-9th level spells to launch, which are encounter changing ones. also the layers of buffing they are capable of is tremendous. Just what my 18th level wizard cast each morning was a list of 6-8 spells not including what they cast pre-dungeon/fight the 10 minutes per level stuff added another 10 spells. then if I had time to buff pre-fight it was even more.

I know a dispel etc may knock a lot out but having to deal with the dispel was a stop get the list and go down it as the gm rolled to knock out spells. All this and I wa a GM and highly organized player who knew what everything did and how it interacted with everything else. I did most the work.

Fighters and the like were not a whole lot better with buffs, number of attacks bonuses and stuff floating around the table from other characters abilities etc.


5th means maybe one or two buffs and casters the same level having maybe 3-4 spells in the 7 -9 range not that many per spell level.

Fighters may have multiple attacks but all at the same bonus and a lot less math coming from other sources.

and all this applies to the GM. A Deva/Devil/Demon/Dragon that is a CR 20 in 3.5/PF has a huge amount of different stuff they can do. Even if it boils down to only performing 3-5 rounds before dead / defeated the GM has to figure out from that abundance what they would do.

a CR 20 monster of the same type in 5th edition is simpler and easier to manage.

Now I played both and enjoyed both. this is simply a comparison. If you prefer complicated/indepth rules and choices then 3.5/PF is a better choice.

I am old now and tire easily so prefer 5th edition.

How does it relate to Scry-Buff-Teleport or similar strategies that initiated my concerns about mitigating the tendency of high level parties being able to go Nova?

 

[S'mon]

Do you mind expounding upon this a little?

It's a much lower magic game, and bounded accuracy stops numbers bloat, so number of enemies matters more than power of enemies.

 

[S'mon]

How does it relate to Scry-Buff-Teleport or similar strategies that initiated my concerns about mitigating the tendency of high level parties being able to go Nova?

In years of running high level 5e I've never seen anyone attempt this, so I'm guessing it's not very practical given the Concentration mechanic and limited spell slots. I can't actually recall anyone ever attempt Scrying in 5e. You can't really nova in 5e the way you can in 3e.

 

[Oofta]

How does it relate to Scry-Buff-Teleport or similar strategies that initiated my concerns about mitigating the tendency of high level parties being able to go Nova?

There are spells like Forbiddance and Hallow that can be used to shut down teleportation, planar and ethereal travel. Throw in some glyphs that cast spells for even more fun. You can stop scrying with a simple amulet.

Force the PCs to run the gauntlet