D&D (2024) (+) New Edition Changes for Inclusivity (discuss possibilities)

fearsomepirate · Aug 6, 2020

Did renaming demons and devils in 2e get more evangelicals to play D&D? Bowldlerizing D&D isn't going to make a game that includes more people. It's going to make a game that more people find boring and uninspired. It's like trying make a cheeseburger everybody on earth likes equally.

Might as well take out the words "Dungeon" and "Dragon" for being too Eurocentric. Pretty much all the classes are "problematic" if not being equally drawn from/applicable to every culture is a problem. The weapon & armor system is built around European weapons. And no, "reskinning" doesn't work---there is no Zulu equivalent of plate armor, no Arab equivalent of the heavy crossbow, and certainly no Aztec equivalent of the mounted knight. The whole conceit of the game is drawn from the fantasy novel, a largely Anglophone innovation, and attempts to retrofit all cultures' forms of storytelling into the framework are going to be about as successful as trying to make sushi out of a Big Mac.

I get it, this is now a mass-market product that serves as a tentpole for a billion-dollar corporation, got to sand off all the edges and sanitize it, can't hit those growth targets if it's not selling in India or Brazil.

Eh, nobody cares what I think.

doctorbadwolf · Aug 6, 2020

jmartkdr2 said:
Trying to make every class work with every ability array is a crazy-huge task that will require a ton of oddball subclasses and alternate features and a lot of weird, contradictory ideas like muscle wizards and charm-focused rangers and scrawny barbarians who get by on pure intellect (while raging).

It doesn’t require all that, at all. It literally just requires that each character choose a physical weapon stat and a Spellcasting stat during CharGen, and use those stats for those tasks, regardless of class.

Maxperson said:
Poseidon is the god of and creator of horses.

Deset Gled said:
Surely this is reductio ad absurdum, yes? The fact that some mythology has a god of XYZ is different than saying XYZ is a borrowed mythology. Otherwise Helios and Gaia are gonna be big problems.

Horses are sacred in quite a few cultures and faiths, from many Native American peoples (the creator created horses as a spiritual gift to mankind, IIRC), to many continental Celts, to the ancient Greeks.

If Thor can’t be in the book because I and others “worship“ him, then all sorts of things are on the table. Still, horses are kinda an odd choice, since they are a ubiquitous real life animal.

ZeshinX · Aug 6, 2020

fearsomepirate said:
Did renaming demons and devils in 2e get more evangelicals to play D&D? Bowldlerizing D&D isn't going to make a game that includes more people. It's going to make a game that more people find boring and uninspired. It's like trying make a cheeseburger everybody on earth likes equally.

Might as well take out the words "Dungeon" and "Dragon" for being too Eurocentric. Pretty much all the classes are "problematic" if not being equally drawn from/applicable to every culture is a problem. The weapon & armor system is built around European weapons. And no, "reskinning" doesn't work---there is no Zulu equivalent of plate armor, no Arab equivalent of the heavy crossbow, and certainly no Aztec equivalent of the mounted knight. The whole conceit of the game is drawn from the fantasy novel, a largely Anglophone innovation, and attempts to retrofit all cultures' forms of storytelling into the framework are going to be about as successful as trying to make sushi out of a Big Mac.

I get it, this is now a mass-market product that serves as a tentpole for a billion-dollar corporation, got to sand off all the edges and sanitize it, can't hit those growth targets if it's not selling in India or Brazil.

Eh, nobody cares what I think.

It's pretty much what I feel about it all. D&D had its Satanic Panic, this is now its Moral Panic. Not as catchy sounding, granted, but that's essentially what this is. As the Satanic Panic passed, so too will this in time. Whether D&D is in a better or worse place afterwards only time will answer.

WayOfTheFourElements · Aug 6, 2020

fearsomepirate said:
Might as well take out the words "Dungeon" and "Dragon" for being too Eurocentric. Pretty much all the classes are "problematic" if not being equally drawn from/applicable to every culture is a problem. The weapon & armor system is built around European weapons. And no, "reskinning" doesn't work---there is no Zulu equivalent of plate armor, no Arab equivalent of the heavy crossbow, and certainly no Aztec equivalent of the mounted knight. The whole conceit of the game is drawn from the fantasy novel, a largely Anglophone innovation, and attempts to retrofit all cultures' forms of storytelling into the framework are going to be about as successful as trying to make sushi out of a Big Mac.

I proudly and thoughtfully propose the title: Torture Chambers and Tarragons

Umbran · Aug 6, 2020

Maxperson said:
A bit...

Mod Note:

There is a point where reductio ad absurdum, when not properly handled, runs afoul of Poe's Law. So, please reconsider its use on these topics going forwards. You are making it difficult for people to understand your point, and they are reporting you. Then, you have to worry about whether the moderator gets what you mean, and if not, you won't like the result.

Levistus's_Leviathan · Aug 6, 2020

Okay, this talk about if real world religions should be included in D&D has kind of gone off the rails. I don't think D&D should include real world religions like Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and so on. D&D has definitely taken inspiration from real world cultures and religions, and that's necessary to a point. There's a difference between including a Pegasus and the Pope.

D&D needs to be inspired by the real world to an extent, but going out of your way to put real life religions in the game is too far, IMO.

So, please. If you want to continue discussing this facet of the topic, don't use slippery slope arguments saying that D&D needs to remove all references to all real world religions. That's not realistic.

Maxperson · Aug 6, 2020

doctorbadwolf said:
Horses are sacred in quite a few cultures and faiths, from many Native American peoples (the creator created horses as a spiritual gift to mankind, IIRC)

That's interesting since horses went extinct in North America 10 to 15 thousand years ago, and were only reintroduced as an invasive species when Europe arrived on the scene.

Did they add horses to their religion after that, or did horses stay in their stories for 10 to 15 thousand years until their return?

Remathilis · Aug 6, 2020

AcererakTriple6 said:
Okay, this talk about if real world religions should be included in D&D has kind of gone off the rails. I don't think D&D should include real world religions like Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and so on. D&D has definitely taken inspiration from real world cultures and religions, and that's necessary to a point. There's a difference between including a Pegasus and the Pope.

D&D needs to be inspired by the real world to an extent, but going out of your way to put real life religions in the game is too far, IMO.

So, please. If you want to continue discussing this facet of the topic, don't use slippery slope arguments saying that D&D needs to remove all references to all real world religions. That's not realistic.

Thank you.

My point was it's one thing to have centaurs, oni, angels or horses(?) Because they are not gods themselves, but it's another to say it's ok to have stats for Thor because he's "mythological" but not Jesus because that would offend people. Let's try to keep beings who were worshipped here on Earth out.

FrogReaver · Aug 6, 2020

Remathilis said:
Thank you.

My point was it's one thing to have centaurs, oni, angels or horses(?) Because they are not gods themselves, but it's another to say it's ok to have stats for Thor because he's "mythological" but not Jesus because that would offend people. Let's try to keep beings who were worshipped here on Earth out.

What about cows? I hear they are considered holy. What about pigs? I hear they are considered unclean.

but more importantly, this discussion went Quite a bit different direction than What I brought up. I wasn’t asking about the religious figures being represented, but the everyday believers.

Crimson Longinus · Aug 6, 2020

Remathilis said:
Thank you.

My point was it's one thing to have centaurs, oni, angels or horses(?) Because they are not gods themselves, but it's another to say it's ok to have stats for Thor because he's "mythological" but not Jesus because that would offend people. Let's try to keep beings who were worshipped here on Earth out.

Can we have stats for the rest of the Avengers though?

D&D (2024) (+) New Edition Changes for Inclusivity (discuss possibilities)

fearsomepirate

Hero

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

ZeshinX

Adventurer

WayOfTheFourElements

Hero

Umbran

Mod Squad

Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Remathilis

Legend

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Crimson Longinus

Legend

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