D&D 5E How much magic do you have in your game?

squibbles · Jan 22, 2021

If commoners with 4 HP are the most common type of people in the setting (otherwise why are they called that?), basically any magic user is deadly. As a commoner, meeting a 3rd level wizard on the street would be like meeting someone open carrying a revolver (6 spell slots); you know that that person can kill you and, even if you're confident nothing is gonna happen, the encounter is still slightly uncomfortable. You'd probably be extra polite to them.

Most higher level spells are bigger but fundamentally similar versions of this, i.e. a 5th level wizard with fireball is open carrying a bazooka, a 7th level druid with stoneskin is a guy in body armor, and so on. The unseemliness of these things depends on culture--nobody bats an eye at a revolver in a wild west saloon--but, at the very least, a spellcaster is an obviously threatening and highly militarized person.

Even spells that are huge game-changers from a PC's perspective aren't fundamentally different from this. A wizard that can fly or turn invisible is only one wizard, and is only locally significant. He/she doesn't matter very much to the wider world--just like one guy with a jetpack and a revolver doesn't much matter to us.

From 3rd level on up, though, there start to be spells that would make or break whole countries (assuming pre-modern levels of technology).

Plant growth (3rd), when cast as a ritual in a different place every day, is a doubling of a large region's agricultural output.
Revivify (3rd) and Raise dead (5th), drastically reduce the success rate of assassinations.
Sending (3rd), is a communications revolution, drastically improving central command and control.
Divination (4th), commune (5th), and contact other plane (5th) could significantly improve state decision making.
Scrying (5th, and as a consequence, mordy's private sanctum) is a revolution in intelligence gathering.
Teleportation circle (5th) is a transportation revolution for military logistics and maybe also commerce.
Transmute rock (5th) is a revolution in siegecraft.

In a place where casters of these spells are common and socially well integrated, they would be the equivalent of a doctor/engineer/programmer/navy seal--a person who possesses most of the society's most marketable technical skill sets at once, but who also happens to be a mother effing navy seal. Everyone would want their kid to become one.

Around 7th level spells, the godlike powers and weapons of mass destruction start to come online; simulacrum (7th), teleport (7th), plane shift (7th), clone (8th), control weather (8th), demiplane (8th), earthquake (8th), mighty fortress (8th), meteor swarm (9th), storm of vengeance (9th), wish (9th). Each caster with these spells would be a nation unto him/herself, and would struggle to empathize with the human condition. I think they'd either be god-kings or insane dissociated hermits.

6ENow! said:
So, in the thoughts of focusing on SPELLS, what level of spells would be considered powerful (however you define that) to the typical person in your game world?

I guess I vote 3rd level spells. 1st and 2nd are deadly to the typical person, but not powerful in a big picture sense.

tetrasodium · Jan 22, 2021

squibbles said:
If commoners with 4 HP are the most common type of people in the setting (otherwise why are they called that?), basically any magic user is deadly. As a commoner, meeting a 3rd level wizard on the street would be like meeting someone open carrying a revolver (6 spell slots); you know that that person can kill you and, even if you're confident nothing is gonna happen, the encounter is still slightly uncomfortable. You'd probably be extra polite to them.

Most higher level spells are bigger but fundamentally similar versions of this, i.e. a 5th level wizard with fireball is open carrying a bazooka, a 7th level druid with stoneskin is a guy in body armor, and so on. The unseemliness of these things depends on culture--nobody bats an eye at a revolver in a wild west saloon--but, at the very least, a spellcaster is an obviously threatening and highly militarized person.

Even spells that are huge game-changers from a PC's perspective aren't fundamentally different from this. A wizard that can fly or turn invisible is only one wizard, and is only locally significant. He/she doesn't matter very much to the wider world--just like one guy with a jetpack and a revolver doesn't much matter to us.

From 3rd level on up, though, there start to be spells that would make or break whole countries (assuming pre-modern levels of technology).

Plant growth (3rd), when cast as a ritual in a different place every day, is a doubling of a large region's agricultural output.

Revivify (3rd) and Raise dead (5th), drastically reduce the success rate of assassinations.

Sending (3rd), is a communications revolution, drastically improving central command and control.

Divination (4th), commune (5th), and contact other plane (5th) could significantly improve state decision making.

Scrying (5th, and as a consequence, mordy's private sanctum) is a revolution in intelligence gathering.

Teleportation circle (5th) is a transportation revolution for military logistics and maybe also commerce.

Transmute rock (5th) is a revolution in siegecraft.

In a place where casters of these spells are common and socially well integrated, they would be the equivalent of a doctor/engineer/programmer/navy seal--a person who possesses most of the society's most marketable technical skill sets at once, but who also happens to be a mother effing navy seal. Everyone would want their kid to become one.

Around 7th level spells, the godlike powers and weapons of mass destruction start to come online; simulacrum (7th), teleport (7th), plane shift (7th), clone (8th), control weather (8th), demiplane (8th), earthquake (8th), mighty fortress (8th), meteor swarm (9th), storm of vengeance (9th), wish (9th). Each caster with these spells would be a nation unto him/herself, and would struggle to empathize with the human condition. I think they'd either be god-kings or insane dissociated hermits.

I guess I vote 3rd level spells. 1st and 2nd are deadly to the typical person, but not powerful in a big picture sense.

Control weather & plant growth are like subscription services in parts of eberron right down to one of the 5e books listing an eldritch machine to control weather in like +100 mile radius to supply rain for irrigation I'm pretty sure that plant growth is mentioned in conjunction with it or the house that runs them

squibbles · Jan 22, 2021

tetrasodium said:
Control weather & plant growth are like subscription services in parts of eberron right down to one of the 5e books listing an eldritch machine to control weather in like +100 mile radius to supply rain for irrigation I'm pretty sure that plant growth is mentioned in conjunction with it or the house that runs them

Right, that seems like the casters as doctor/engineer/programmer/navy seal paradigm then, no?

I'm not familiar with the setting beyond its broad strokes, does it treat all the artificers who run that system as rockstars or workaday schlubs?

tetrasodium · Jan 22, 2021

squibbles said:
Right, that seems like the casters as doctor/engineer/programmer/navy seal paradigm then, no?

I'm not familiar with the setting beyond its broad strokes, does it treat all the artificers who run that system as rockstars or workaday schlubs?

There's another role called magewrights, here's a few examples frim that link that give a good range from launderer & locksmith to healer. It's kinda like a skilled trade I guess you could say I think that rising or exploring eberron might talk more about them too but a handful of ritually cast cantrips & ritually cast low level spells related to their trade that pcs normally use a spellslot for isn't exactly a big jump for a modified & thematically limited version of magic adept or something.

The storm spire is a

That is also a

Being a dragonmark focus item means that it's only usable by someone who won the genetic lottery of birth to be born of a particular bloodline who also got lucky enough to have their mark manifest (a good percentage will manifest). In some ways the dragonmark houses have more power than nation states & can be likened to proto-megacorps. That wall of stone hypothetical example I gave may or may not involve one or more Cannith Heirs with the mark of making using a special purpose dragonmark focus item (it was just a spell with a constructive use I picked). PCs can pick a dragonmarked heir as a race (options for them in rising)

The setting does have colleges & universities (arcanix, library of korranberg, wayfinder society, rekkenmark academy, & maybe one or two others covers most) with their own little lore/flufff niche in the world but the lines are a little blurry so you could have a seamstress lamplighter healer & hypothetical archmage all graduating from the arcanix or whatever

squibbles · Jan 23, 2021

tetrasodium said:
There's another role called magewrights, here's a few examples frim that link that give a good range from launderer & locksmith to healer. It's kinda like a skilled trade I guess you could say I think that rising or exploring eberron might talk more about them too but a handful of ritually cast cantrips & ritually cast low level spells related to their trade that pcs normally use a spellslot for isn't exactly a big jump for a modified & thematically limited version of magic adept or something.

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Being a dragonmark focus item means that it's only usable by someone who won the genetic lottery of birth to be born of a particular bloodline who also got lucky enough to have their mark manifest (a good percentage will manifest). In some ways the dragonmark houses have more power than nation states & can be likened to proto-megacorps. That wall of stone hypothetical example I gave may or may not involve one or more Cannith Heirs with the mark of making using a special purpose dragonmark focus item (it was just a spell with a constructive use I picked). PCs can pick a dragonmarked heir as a race (options for them in rising)

The setting does have colleges & universities (arcanix, library of korranberg, wayfinder society, rekkenmark academy, & maybe one or two others covers most) with their own little lore/flufff niche in the world but the lines are a little blurry so you could have a seamstress lamplighter healer & hypothetical archmage all graduating from the arcanix or whatever

Huh.

I think of D&D as having its own genre (developed by accretion and historical accident) that is very much built from its rules artifacts and D&Disms. The "implied setting" isn't an outgrowth or deliberate simulation of any particular fantastical setting, it's a weird gestalt that makes sense (or doesn't) according to its own quirks.

I didn't realize quite how much Eberron is a rejection of that. The first blog post in the search you linked states: "the concept of the magewright has always been at odds with the rules; the idea never really worked with [Vancian magic]".

So, I guess Eberron is kind of its own thing separate from D&D's D&Disms and not just D&D with the prevalence of magic turned up to 11... which means I have nothing to say about it that is germane to the thread :erm:

.

...

Also, not to knock the setting if it's your jam, but the idea of there being magical trade schools seems very banal to me.

Is there also a magical DMV, magical nail polish remover, and magical talk radio?

Krachek · Jan 23, 2021

In term of influencing a society some low level spell are already amazing even for our modern society.
Imagine the influence could get an organisation that control the lesser restoration spell. How much people would pay to be cure from a lethal disease? How much political or information benefit could be trade in exchange of a guaranteed healing.
Imagine justice that could count on speak with dead and zone of truth to help investigator.
The simple Sending spell is 100% delivery safe, no hacker, no error, even modern secret service cannot achieve that.
It is up to each DM to determine how common and impactful magic can be in various part of his setting.
We can imagine society where magic is controlled by the military, or the religious, or the criminals, or family cast, or free access. those choice can change the behavior of various kingdom or empire.

TwoSix · Jan 23, 2021

Flamestrike said:
The game makes a distinction between spell levels of 1-5 and 6+ (see Pact Magic/ Arcanum split for Warlock and the Sorcerer and Wizard ability to recover or create slots of no more than 5th level, and half casters having that 5th level limit).

IMG's any reasonable sized town and you can track down spells of levels 1-5 (Raise dead etc). Higher level magic of T3+ is much rarer.

Yea, I voted 6th for precisely this reason. Most of my games are fairly high magic (we have Ye Olde Magic Shoppes or facsimiles), but crafting items with 6th level or above effects is almost impossible outside of rare story circumstances.

tetrasodium · Jan 23, 2021

squibbles said:
sHuh.

I think of D&D as having its own genre (developed by accretion and historical accident) that is very much built from its rules artifacts and D&Disms. The "implied setting" isn't an outgrowth or deliberate simulation of any particular fantastical setting, it's a weird gestalt that makes sense (or doesn't) according to its own quirks.

I didn't realize quite how much Eberron is a rejection of that. The first blog post in the search you linked states: "the concept of the magewright has always been at odds with the rules; the idea never really worked with [Vancian magic]".

So, I guess Eberron is kind of its own thing separate from D&D's D&Disms and not just D&D with the prevalence of magic turned up to 11... which means I have nothing to say about it that is germane to the thread .

...

Also, not to knock the setting if it's your jam, but the idea of there being magical trade schools seems very banal to me.

Is there also a magical DMV, magical nail polish remover, and magical talk radio?

The "schools" have roles with aranix being kind of an ivy league thing on a flying bit of land, library of korranberg is trying to archive all knowledge for hundreds of years, rekkenmark academy is the military acadamy for house denieth which id kind of a dragonmarked house equivalent of modern PMCs so martials aren't left out, wayfinder is pretty much an excuse to throw PCs into a "so you all signed up for doing this to cover the training & gear you just got." They play a very small role in the setting kind of like how candlekeep, silvermoon, thay, & so on tend to play a very small role if any in FR. dmv nail polish remover not that I know Radio?... funny you should ask... how about an actual tongue in cheek podcast? That chronicle of echoes is kind of an in setting d&d themed version of welcome to night vale in the one setting likely to be at a single world & tech level where radios are possible (roughly analogous to late 1800s early 1900s) but using magic crystals known as dragonshards & low level magic rather than coal/oil & our technology development.

The setting does turn a lot of faerunisms sideways & to a degree that's the point or you could just play in faerun.

TwoSix · Jan 23, 2021

squibbles said:
Is there also a magical DMV, magical nail polish remover, and magical talk radio?

Re: talk radio. Not on Khorvaire (the main continent), but on another contient. Sarlona, most people receive constant psionic broadcasts from the alien psychics that rule the continent feeding them constant propaganda. So....yes?

tetrasodium · Jan 23, 2021

TwoSix said:
Re: talk radio. Not on Khorvaire (the main continent), but on another contient. Sarlona, most people receive constant psionic broadcasts from the alien psychics that rule the continent feeding them constant propaganda. So....yes?

in their dreams no less. Kinda tough to hide from the authorities when literally everyone saw your wanted poster & crimes while they were sleeping last night & will probably report you to the nearest... inspired(?) if they even think they saw you

D&D 5E How much magic do you have in your game?

What level of spells is considered "powerful" in your game?

Cantrip

1st

2nd

3rd

4th

5th

6th

7th

8th

9th

Other (please explain)

squibbles

Adventurer

tetrasodium

Legend

squibbles

Adventurer

tetrasodium

Legend

squibbles

Adventurer

Krachek

Hero

TwoSix

Everyone's literal second-favorite poster

tetrasodium

Legend

TwoSix

Everyone's literal second-favorite poster

tetrasodium

Legend

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