D&D General Never Hide The Adventure Behind a Skill Check

Reynard · Apr 30, 2021

This is something that came up in a discussion with a friend and fellow GM and I wanted to talk about it here just to see what other folks thought.

The premise is this: never ask the players for a skill check or other probabilistic game mechanic in order to continue the adventure SPECIFICALLY if that check is a one and done kind of thing.

As an example, if the PCs are drawn unto a murder investigation DO NOT require they succeed at an investigation check of the crime scene if that is the only way to move on with the adventure. Just tell them what they see and let them work out the clues. Similarly, don't gate off level 2 of the dungeon with a secret door that can only be found with a successful perception check.

This isn't to say don't use skill checks, but rather either have skill checks potentially provide additional information or advantage (instead of a secret door to Level 2, use an alarm trap instead) or provide different routes to the next stage of the adventure. Ideally you should do both but time is not an infinite resource, nor is creativity.

Do you agree? What techniques do you use to make sure the PCs find the adventure? What kind of information or content do you think it is okay to gatebehibd mechanics?

el-remmen · Apr 30, 2021

I was just prepping a two level dungeon setting and there are some hidden ways to "fast forward" to deeper parts and skip some dangerous encounters or escape passages for opponents and finding them cold would require careful mapping for dead spots and/or searching in some likely to unlikely places, BUT I also assume there will be social interactions at different times in this underground lair. Freed captives or intimidated underlings might know about a secret passage or know it exists but not exactly where or how to open it. So there are always other ways to figure it out.

"How he get back here so fast with reinforcements?"

"I dunno! There must be some secret short cut in that chamber he emerged from!"

Also, this place has a bunch of secret winding ways, so I also figure that once the party finds or hears about one or two, they are more likely to spend time looking for others.

prabe · Apr 30, 2021

I think the things you need to keep in mind when you're setting up a scenario are that you probably want to have whatever the PCs need to move on in more than one place, and reachable more than one way. So, there's more than one way to the next level of the dungeon, and they have to do different things (or there are different ways past a given portal). In a murder mystery, there are multiple clues, and multiple ways to find them. Also, you probably can't have too many clues--something obvious to you might be opaque to the players.

Marc_C · Apr 30, 2021

Yes you can but you need use the "Fail Forward" technique. The character succeeds (even if the roll failed) but with unintended consequences. The consequence is usually dictated by the amount by which the character failed.

prabe · Apr 30, 2021

Marc_C said:
Yes you can but you need use the "Fail Forward" technique. The character succeeds (even if the roll failed) but with unintended consequences. The consequence is usually dictated by the amount the character missed.

Or this.

overgeeked · Apr 30, 2021

Reynard said:
This is something that came up in a discussion with a friend and fellow GM and I wanted to talk about it here just to see what other folks thought.

The premise is this: never ask the players for a skill check or other probabilistic game mechanic in order to continue the adventure SPECIFICALLY if that check is a one and done kind of thing.

As an example, if the PCs are drawn unto a murder investigation DO NOT require they succeed at an investigation check of the crime scene if that is the only way to move on with the adventure. Just tell them what they see and let them work out the clues. Similarly, don't gate off level 2 of the dungeon with a secret door that can only be found with a successful perception check.

This isn't to say don't use skill checks, but rather either have skill checks potentially provide additional information or advantage (instead of a secret door to Level 2, use an alarm trap instead) or provide different routes to the next stage of the adventure. Ideally you should do both but time is not an infinite resource, nor is creativity.

Do you agree? What techniques do you use to make sure the PCs find the adventure? What kind of information or content do you think it is okay to gatebehibd mechanics?

Absolutely agree.

I play a lot of Call of Cthulhu and 7E is my favorite version so far. That game distinguishes clues into two categories. Obvious and obscure. Obvious clues do not require a roll and the are necessary to continue the scenario. Obscure clues do require a roll but are not necessary to continue the scenario.

Failing forward is also a great way to handle things. Picking the lock but breaking your tools. Finding the clue but partially damaging it. Etc.

Oofta · Apr 30, 2021

There's fail forward, or just a setback. They didn't find the obvious clue so solving the mystery will be more difficult. On the other hand, do they need to solve the mystery, does the party need to always succeed? I would say no; that failure can be just as interesting as success as long as the PCs have other goals.

If they don't solve the red hand murder, the DM has just been handed a great opportunity to set up a nemesis. It may mean the scenario doesn't go as the DM had expected, but that's part of why I enjoy D&D versus computer games. Because the unexpected can happen, the PCs can fail or conversely can succeed unexpectedly. Either can lead to great fun.

Reynard · Apr 30, 2021

Marc_C said:
Yes you can but you need use the "Fail Forward" technique. The character succeeds (even if the roll failed) but with unintended consequences. The consequence is usually dictated by the amount by which the character failed.

My version of this is what sort of refer to as "roll to tell me something about the world." The roll isn't so much a test of the character's skill as it is a probabilistic measure of a thing. The easiest is the "reaction roll": i'm not really asking for how well the PC argued (the player already did that through roleplay) I am letting the dice tell me the mood of the audience.

Marc_C · Apr 30, 2021

Reynard said:
My version of this is what sort of refer to as "roll to tell me something about the world." The roll isn't so much a test of the character's skill as it is a probabilistic measure of a thing. The easiest is the "reaction roll": i'm not really asking for how well the PC argued (the player already did that through roleplay) I am letting the dice tell me the mood of the audience.

I'm relying less on role-play than I used to. A player cannot role-play high intelligence or charisma scores. We are all modestly average people at my table. So the skill roll is very much about how well the character succeeds or fails, just like with an attack roll.

Dausuul · Apr 30, 2021

Reynard said:
Do you agree? What techniques do you use to make sure the PCs find the adventure? What kind of information or content do you think it is okay to gate behind mechanics?

I agree; the adventure should never become inaccessible due to bad die rolls. (I mean, what a waste of time for me as DM! I put all that prep work into creating the adventure, and then some stupid player goes and rolls a 1 and it all ends up in the trash? Heck no at all.)

As a rule, I think information-gathering mechanics should allow you to:

1) Take a short cut, saving you time, money, or hit points.
2) Find an optional reward.
3. Achieve a secondary objective.

D&D General Never Hide The Adventure Behind a Skill Check

Reynard

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el-remmen

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prabe

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Marc_C

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prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun

overgeeked

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Oofta

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Reynard

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Marc_C

Solitary Role Playing

Dausuul

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