ph0rk
Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
This is literally the logic that undergrads who cheat use when caught.
D&D General It's not a video game.
This is literally the logic that undergrads who cheat use when caught.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
Notably, an undergrad likely agreed to a Code of Conduct that prohibited certain things when registering for the university. People should be held to their agreements. In the context of a D&D game, this would be a table rule since it exists outside the rules of the game. Not every table adopts such a table rule, however, therefore players at such a table are not cheating to employ knowledge of the adventure (or monsters or whatever) as they see fit and at their own risk.
Swarmkeeper
Hero
Some DMs want to play modules out of the box, some want to tinker. I'd gather that the number of DMs in the latter camp far outnumber those in the former, but perhaps that is just a biased hunch on my part.
So you are arguing that a DM changing up things in a module means that the only way for players to succeed is for them to read the module? I'm not sure I'm following the logic of your analogy here.
el-remmen
Moderator Emeritus
Again some people see it as an issue at the table to be solved through discussion and collaboration and others see it as a matter of a value judgement that can only be solved through punishment/expulsion. The thing is, people in the first group might still make the same value judgement, but nevertheless see addressing the origin of that behavior as more important than just casting an aspersion. On the other hand, the people in the second group that feel the need to try to convince people in the first group that the value judgement is the beginning and end of it and any and all other contexts or considerations don't matter are what really perplex me - as if what other people do or how they handle things at their table somehow undermines the integrity of their own games.
ph0rk
Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
Even for those that want to tinker, it is far better to do so when and where they choose than to be forced to tinker with everything because of player foreknowledge. In a game where players and DMs are amiable, digging through the module for information that would be unavailable to characters is clearly beyond the pale.
These don't include every specific form of cheating, either. It's pretty rare for one to say "don't look up publisher test item banks", but that violates the spirit of the code of conduct and is, thus, cheating.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
Then what this suggests is that a DM who cares about this sort of thing should be explicit about it in their table rules so there is no misunderstanding from the players.
Swarmkeeper
Hero
I think you overestimate the amount of tinkering that is necessary to get players accustomed to engaging with the fiction via their PCs regardless of their foreknowledge. Hint: it's not "tinker with everything."
Based on the bolded bit, I also think we're possibly getting into the territory of "but your character wouldn't do/say/think that" which, at least in 5e, is a big no-no for a DM or another player to say. And, to reiterate, what a player thinks they know - regardless of source - and what is actually true in the game world can be two very different things.
MichaelSomething
Legend
You know there's random generation in video games right?
The players can't predict if I can't predict me...
The players can't predict if I can't predict me...
overgeeked
B/X Known World
"Neither the rulebook nor the DM explicitly stated I couldn't use loaded dice to roll my stats, therefore it's not cheating, and thus my 18s in every stat are legal and stand. If the DM didn't want me to do that, they should have said so up front, therefore if anyone has a problem with my all 18 stats, it's the DM's fault."
As pointed out above, many modules do in fact explicitly state they're not for players to read. But of course that doesn't matter either. It never does. Cheaters always blame everyone but themselves and always justify their behavior as smart while saying it's dumb not to cheat. Doesn't matter what anyone or anything says. The justifications will literally never end.
I get it. I sometimes play video games on easy mode. 5E is already the easiest mode. Do players really need to take away what little mystery and surprise remains? Of course they do. Because it's not about playing a game and finding out what happens, it's all about winning.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
It's not really about who's at fault for not being explicit enough with table rules or labeling people as heretics for transgressing unspoken codes of conduct and excommunicating them, but rather doing one's best to try to get on the same page with the rest of the people playing so that problems don't crop up down the road. Creating an environment for that open and ongoing communication to occur is key in my experience.
Controlling for what one can control for also helps a great deal, as I've said upthread. You can't cheat with loaded dice in my games, for example, because we use electronic dice rollers. So I controlled for that already. It also has the side effect of being a great deal faster than tossing math rocks on (and off then on) the table.
And notably, the D&D 5e DMG offers guidance around dice-rolling table rules as a starting point to have these sorts of conversations.
