D&D 5E Declarations that start combat vs. initiative

Maxperson · Apr 14, 2022

Mort said:
See to me, this actually weakens the argument. He's coming in with a drawn dagger in hand?!?

You've never been in a situation where people are armed on one or both sides and are talking things out?

Mort said:
That means parties are on HIGH alert and looking for any excuse, depending on the situation. If he even flinches, initiative might be set off. Or, even more likely, someone sees the drawn dagger and THAT sets off initiative right there.

It doesn't matter if high alert is happening. It takes less than a second to reach back and then hurl the dagger forward. Even on high alert, by the time you can register the motion beginning to happen, it's impossible for you to move 30 feet and attack before that dagger is thrown.

Lyxen · Apr 14, 2022

Maxperson said:
It's NOT A MANDATE.

Have you ever run a combat without rolling initiative ? The sentence is clear: Everyone involved in the combat encounter ROLLS initiative.

Deny this, it does not even say it's an ability check, it says ROLLS. It is, therefore uncertain, as per the section on ability checks.

Honestly, if you can't even take into account a simple straightforward sentence with all of 8 words telling you to ROLL, I'm out.

Mort · Apr 14, 2022

Maxperson said:
You've never been in a situation where people are armed on one or both sides and are talking things out?

Not just armed, dagger in hand ready to throw - that's a bit more than just armed. but regardless:

Maxperson said:
It doesn't matter if high alert is happening. It takes less than a second to reach back and then hurl the dagger forward. Even on high alert, by the time you can register the motion beginning to happen, it's impossible for you to move 30 feet and attack before that dagger is thrown.

There's that word again!

It's only "impossible" because you're defining it as so. Plenty of ways to justify otherwise, in the fiction. And I'd rather do that than just rule that DG wins initiative EVERY TIME.

Bill Zebub · Apr 14, 2022

The uncertainty the rules talk about is in regard to the outcome of a declared action. Dice are used when the DM decides success/failure is uncertain.

Initiative is not used to resolve the success or failure of action declarations.

Thus, when a player declares an action intended to catch opponents off-guard, that must be resolved. And, yes, the DM can just grant auto-success. The correct way, by RAW, to then play it out (whether ruled automatic success or determined by ability checks) is to roll initiative but grant a surprise round.

So the real DMing question is when to reward players for good play with automatic success, and thus incentivize that kind of play. I don’t think being the first to say “I attack!” rises to that level.

Maxperson · Apr 14, 2022

Lyxen said:
Have you ever run a combat without rolling initiative ? The sentence is clear: Everyone involved in the combat encounter ROLLS initiative.

Have I ever let someone go first without rolling? Yes. RAW allows it via the specific rule that applies to all general ability check rules, such as the general initiative rule.

Lyxen said:
Deny this, it does not even say it's an ability check, it says ROLLS.

Um. Dude. "When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check..." It explicitly says it's an ability check. That's why the Bard's Jack of All Trades works on it.

Lyxen said:
Honestly, if you can't even take into account a simple straightforward sentence with all of 8 words telling you to ROLL, I'm out.

You're out because you don't have a coherent argument against it. I quoted from the ability check section where it tells you roll for skill checks, too. Yet the DM can determine uncertainty there, despite the "mandate" language being present.

You cannot overcome my argument. You can only repeat your incorrect assumptions about "mandates" that aren't present.

Maxperson · Apr 14, 2022

Mort said:
Not just armed, dagger in hand ready to throw - that's a bit more than just armed. but regardless:

There's that word again!

It's only "impossible" because you're defining it as so. Plenty of ways to justify otherwise, in the fiction. And I'd rather do that than just rule that DG wins initiative EVERY TIME.

Weak justifications fail in my eyes. Can you justify it by saying that for some reason the rogue's arm starts moving in slow motion? Sure. Can you use @Lyxen's justification by saying that the rogue suddenly has ADHD and starts paying attention to everything else around him but the target he has begun to throw at and stops throwing? Sure.

The reality is, though, the rogue's action is going to happen before the fighter can cross that 30 feet and should probably just be given winning initiative under that very limited scenario.

Bill Zebub · Apr 14, 2022

Maxperson said:
. Even on high alert, by the time you can register the motion beginning to happen, it's impossible for you to move 30 feet and attack before that dagger is thrown.

Do you let the dagger thrower throw multiple daggers in one turn? And do you make the heavy crossbow guy use several turns to reload?

I’m guessing not, but I’m curious how many abstracted rules you ignore because they don’t fit your perception of reality.

In Monopoly, obviously the car should have a speed advantage over the boot.

Lyxen · Apr 14, 2022

Maxperson said:
You cannot overcome my argument.

Tells you TWICE to roll. Yes, as part of a dexterity check. Just apply the rule above, more specific than anything about ability checks in general. Honestly...

Bacon Bits · Apr 14, 2022

Lyxen said:
Have you ever run a combat without rolling initiative ?

I have. I ran a whole series of 1v1 arena combats. I just compared Dex to determine who went first.

Nevermind all the times we ran variants of popcorn initiative in prior editions, a fair number of which just had the PCs go first unless they were surprised. Modipheus 2d20 that uses that system.

People really, really overvalue initiative's effects, especially when you consider that in D&D there's a good chance that whatever action you take won't result in anything permanent (missed attacks, passed saving throws, movement and cover, etc.).

Maxperson · Apr 14, 2022

Lyxen said:
View attachment 155326

Tells you TWICE to roll. Yes, as part of a dexterity check. Just apply the rule above, more specific than anything about ability checks in general. Honestly...

The same "mandate" language is also used for skill ability checks. How do you rationalize that away?

D&D 5E Declarations that start combat vs. initiative

Combat starting mid-RP without sneakiness, when does the declaring PC/NPC go?

In normal initiative order. The one who's action started this may not actually be the first action.

At the top of initiative, since there is no combat until they make their move.

During normal initiative but with chance of people on both sides could be surprised.

At the top of initiative, with the chance people on both sides could be surprised it's starting now.

Other (explained below).

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Lyxen

Great Old One

Mort

Legend

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”

Lyxen

Great Old One

Bacon Bits

Hero

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

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