D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

Chaosmancer said:

Outpost is still military.

Seriously, do you not get how this is so twisted? The elves live in the forest. The elves have "towns", "cities" "homes" and "enclaves". Orcs live in ruins, in caves, and they get "lairs", "headquarters", "outposts". You would never tell your players "and here in the deeps of the Glennwood is the Elven Lair!" and if you called it an outpost or a fort, you would be implying that they are a forward base for a larger military structure. But Orcs don't get that the VAST majority of the time. They are isolated, with no other orcs nearby offering them military aid. Defeating them doesn't disrupt supply lines or allow you to breach enemy territory. It wipes them from the area.

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I think if the elves were evil you might call it a lair.

Again, orcs are monsters in the setting. You can take that kind of historical realism to the game if you like (i often do this), but D&D has a lot of conceits that are there to facilitate game play. Dungeons also don't often make a lot of sense if you stare at them too long. The architecture of most dungeons is pretty ridiculous. But it is designed with an eye towards play, not an eye towards being built. Nothing wrong with taking a more historical or naturalistic approach, I just don't think D&D is that game in its default state

Everything is a monster, even (animated) objects.

Hussar said:

De lurking because I think this is the nub of the issue as it were.

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I learned a long time ago that it isn't my place to tell people what they should be offended or hurt by, but I don't think you and I are going to see eye-to-eye on this. I appreciate that this topic means a lot to you and it isn't always easy for you to discuss, Thank you for sharing your point-of-view with me.

Horwath said:

everyone has the right to deal with trespassers as they see fit.

Only thing that can be in question, was the dungeon built by the orcs/goblins or did they pushed the dwarves from it and you are helping dwarves to reclaim it.

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You know the most famous version of this was Gauntlgrym. Orcs took it over from Dwarves and the Dwarves heroically took it back. Except... have you ever looked at the time line?

The original orc invasion happened in -111. The dwarves take it back in 141. That is 250 years later. Now for the Dwarves, that's not a problem. They live for about 350 years, so a middle-aged dwarf when the city fell would still possibly be alive. But do you know how long Orcs live? 50 years. Meaning that not only has the middle-aged Orc that took over the city died, but so did their Great-great-great-great grandson

And now, in FR history, Gauntlgrym is reclaimed (because it was lost again, to illithid, then drow)... in 1486. Even if you count from the second time they lost the place (in 153) it has been over 1300 years! This would be like saying that the Roman Empire has the right to reclaim Turkey.

Sure, the dwarves lost the place, but at a certain point, it becomes really questionable if you have the right to take it back.

Horwath said:

or it was always orc/goblin land and they are launching raids from the area, then attacking it might be looked as preemptive strike.

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Why are you pre-emptively attacking people who have never attacked you? If they are launching raids, it isn't a pre-emptive strike. And why are they launching raids? Elves, Gnomes and Dwarves never launch raids against other people. Dragonborn and Firbolg never launch raids. Why must orcs and goblins ALWAYS launch raids?

TwoSix said:

I seem to remember the most popular story hour this forum ever had started (20 years ago!) by asking if a paladin could possibly redeem a succubus, even though they are all intrinsically evil.

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Almost all. There are exceptions to every rule. I remember back during 2e buying a Planescape supplement and looking at the small adventures provided with it. One of those adventures was rescuing a good succubus and helping her get out of the abyss to be reunited with her love.

Incenjucar said:

Sure! That's how wars or even bar brawls work. Talking is usually a luxury unavailable in a conflict. I don't usually get to ask someone about their motivations when they're swinging at my face. None of that requires evil to be mandatory even for illithids. This is one of the reasons Planescape or even something like a Underdark campaign is so interesting - you get to engage with scary monstrous beings in neutral settings and get to know them outside of an initiative roll, and you might even end up allies if not friends, or at least see tragedy in being unable to do so.

Having a chat with an illithid that laments that brains are a need and not a choice, even if they are in fact evil, could be interesting.

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That's actually the reason why I prefer and wish 5e had used 3e's monster alignment system. Mind Flayers are listed as Usually Lawful Evil. Orcs were Often Chaotic Evil.

Looking at what those two alignments mean we see that Often means Usually means that a majority of that race is the alignment. So if a full 49% of Mind Flayers were Lawful Good, they would still usually be Lawful Evil. For orcs the Often meant that a plurality(40-50%) of the race were that alignment.

There was tons of room to have any alignment you wanted for the monsters.

Chaosmancer said:

You know the most famous version of this was Gauntlgrym. Orcs took it over from Dwarves and the Dwarves heroically took it back. Except... have you ever looked at the time line?

The original orc invasion happened in -111. The dwarves take it back in 141. That is 250 years later. Now for the Dwarves, that's not a problem. They live for about 350 years, so a middle-aged dwarf when the city fell would still possibly be alive. But do you know how long Orcs live? 50 years. Meaning that not only has the middle-aged Orc that took over the city died, but so did their Great-great-great-great grandson

And now, in FR history, Gauntlgrym is reclaimed (because it was lost again, to illithid, then drow)... in 1486. Even if you count from the second time they lost the place (in 153) it has been over 1300 years! This would be like saying that the Roman Empire has the right to reclaim Turkey.

Sure, the dwarves lost the place, but at a certain point, it becomes really questionable if you have the right to take it back.

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Sure, the amount of time can always be debated in what is reclaiming what is lost and what is conquering new territories.
In this case dwarves have the advantage of longer lifespans so window for reclaiming is wider.

Chaosmancer said:

Why are you pre-emptively attacking people who have never attacked you? If they are launching raids, it isn't a pre-emptive strike. And why are they launching raids?

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You were invaded from that territory some time ago(undefined) and now your scouts/spies have concrete evidence that new invasion is imminent. That would be a perfect time for some kind of preemptive strike, if you can do it that is.

Chaosmancer said:

Elves, Gnomes and Dwarves never launch raids against other people. Dragonborn and Firbolg never launch raids. Why must orcs and goblins ALWAYS launch raids?

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It its the classic setting.
But yeah, anyone can invade anyone. take your pick for your homebrew setting.

Chaosmancer said:

Tropes are mental short-hand. And don't give me the "but it is just a game" angle, because then paintings don't matter either because they are just pigments on paper.

Reinforcing "ugly=bad" is something that has had a real-world impact on our society. We have done it for so long, that there is actually a noticeable effect on people's perceptions. A pretty person is seen as more competent, more trustworthy, more moral. Studies have been done on this time and time again.

And sure, it is partially based on biology. Pretty=healthy and not diseased=good, but this is used time and time and time again. Big, ugly and mean. Big, ugly and mean. And then you run into a person who is big and "ugly"... so your brain finishes the shorthand. Obviously they are mean, or bad, or malicious.

Is this a problem we can fix? Hell no. Not even close. But it is important to recognize that it is a trope, a mental short-cut that can lead us astray, because it incentivizes us to judge someone based on their appearance. Just like there are a lot of people who when they see a beautiful blonde, they immediately think she is shallow and catty, because media has deluged us with example after example after example of shallow, catty blondes.

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Tropes do not incentivize us judge based on appearance any more than violent games make kids violent. Games are games. Reality is reality. A trope can be lazy or even offensive, but it's not going to change the behavior of someone.

jasper said:

It matters because they don't use Jasper Skin cream for that nice lawful good look. Could you imagine How rich I will be if they just buy the product.

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You overprice it! If you didn't charge so much, those poor orcs wouldn't have to become marauders and go around pillaging towns.

Chaosmancer said:

And you don't think "Heroic Canandians infiltrate lair and kill savage Bostonian" is trying to manipulate and stir up a certain viewpoint?

And another aspect of colonialism is often seen as the difference in technology. Do you happen to see a different in technology between This person

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And this person?

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Horrible example. The good example is.

This person



And this person...



And because I can cherry pick pictures, too, there's this person.



And this person.