Level Up (A5E) What spells count as a Haven

steels12 said:

Thread topic: What spells count as a Haven
The end of my first post: "by this standard I would argue that while very few spells directly provide an option for a haven, many spells can be used to indirectly create a haven by dealing with the hazards that prevent a haven"

My post was essentially trying to make a substantive argument as to what are the sufficient qualities that comprise a haven and how those qualities can be replicated via spells without necessitating an absolutely explicit statement of "havenhood" from the spell description itself

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steels12 said:

Thread topic: What spells count as a Haven
The end of my first post: "by this standard I would argue that while very few spells directly provide an option for a haven, many spells can be used to indirectly create a haven by dealing with the hazards that prevent a haven"

My post was essentially trying to make a substantive argument as to what are the sufficient qualities that comprise a haven and how those qualities can be replicated via spells without necessitating an absolutely explicit statement of "havenhood" from the spell description itself

Click to expand...

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kigmatzomat said:

I have only read LU, not played so I did some googling.

The A5e blog says "A haven is a place where you can rest, get a meal, a full night’s sleep, be protected from the elements, and are at little risk of attack. An inn is a haven; a campsite is not (although you can still take a long rest at a campsite—you just can’t recover fatigue or resolve). Some characters may be able to create havens in the wilderness, at least temporarily."

The srd has:
Vehicles: "A vehicle acts as a haven if it provides accommodation and shelter from the elements. At the Narrator’s discretion, the environment may not be suitable for it to act as a haven."

Encampment Stronghold feat: "At Grade 5, your familiarity with temporary structures is such that you can spend 1 hour to create a haven able to shelter a number of creatures equal to your proficiency bonus. You can’t use this feature again until you finish a long rest."

So based on that, it's plausible to get a proper rest on a ship or a traveler's wagon or a camp made by someone who is highly skilled at living outdoors.

There's plenty of wiggle room (pretty sure a dog sled or a canoe doesn't work as a haven)

Assuming the requirements are protection from elements, a level of defensibility notably greater than a simple tent, and some vague "accomodations" that might be buildable in an hour.

So based on that...

Meld into stone: you are ensconced in stone for 8 hours. "No trace of your presence is visible or detectable by nonmagical senses." You clearly have no concerns for the elements and attacks are between minimal and impossible, as with something like a mountain or just the bedrock, it may impossible to break enough rock to force you out in less than 8 hrs.

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Wall of Stone: If you are in a cavern it's pretty easy to put up a barrier that is maybe 5ft of solid rock. Just put some narrow cracks at places for air. And have a plan to escape later. But you can probably sleep like a baby for 8 hours.

In a more traditional form of shelter, with rocky terrain (or a shovel to dig a bit) to anchor it, you can make a 40'L x 20'W x10'H box structure with 3" thick walls or more useful barn shape at 20'L x 20'W x 20'H (10ft side walls, arched roof) with a 10x20 panel to use as a loft, a "porch" to protect horses or curved wall in front of the door to protect from battering rams. Shape a few narrow windows/arrow slits, a simple chimney, and you just need to make or haul around a decent door.

Won't protect you from an army or a dragon but most wildlife will be baffled, as will quite a few bandits who might decide "it's not worth it"

And c'mon, 3" of stone have to be better than a wooden wagon or whatever it is Ranger Rick is able to whip up in an hour.

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steels12 said:

Overall I'd pretty much agree with all your points.

I would probably " uhm acktuallee" the argument that the "under threat of attack" shouldn't simply count just for "are you literally, mechanically in threat of attack" but moreso "does your character feel as though their wellbeing is potentially physically threatened by resting here" which would disqualify even something like magnificent mansion if used in the wrong place. Granted, you wouldn't feel threatened using it in the deep wilds where only animals roam, because how is a wolf going to do anything to this spell, but just casting it in the middle of an open hallway intersection in the grand high vampire's lair might put you at unease realizing you're all one Dispel Magic from being shunted out into an ambush you don't even know the scope of.

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kigmatzomat said:

The part about "are at little risk of attack" could get a bit meta. "Little risk of attack" as judged by who? The characters? If so, an int5/wis5 character or just ignorant of magic might sleep great because "invisible magic house ftw!" while Nietzsche the mage can barely get a wink as they ponder the dangers of the unknowable void that is the future. Fools where angels fear to tread and all that.

Which begs the question, is the 1hr camp built by Ranger Rick (Encampment Stronghold Feat Grade 5+) only a haven because everyone trusts Ranger Rick to find a safe spot on the slope of Mt Doom even though its really just some artfully piled up bits of pumice and old skulls?

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