GM fiat - an illustration

But what is authentic? This is all just letting the player explicate what they think. Honestly it's straight up neo-trad/OC type play. You define the character and then just exemplify it in play. If there's a character arc, it consists of what you want it to be. Some of our trad play in the '80s evolved into this sort of stuff. Nothing wrong with it, just one type of play.

Here's where I'm trying to carve up the lines as cleanly as I can. Is my Apocalypse World play an example of neo-trad/oc play, by this definition?

I would say 'no' because I haven't committed to an outcome, made it my goal as a player, I'm just being responsive to the fiction, letting the fiction choose.

BUT I don't want to argue the point (or not yet anyway), if you think being responsive to the fiction is neo-trad/oc play I'm fine with that for the time being.

My main aim is to see where people stand, in part to assess @manbearcats game state paradigm and how it does or doesn't apply. It might be that I'm actually an OC player and that's why it doesn't apply. Again though, I don't think I am because I'm being responsive to the fiction to find out how things go (which yeah is still just me deciding or making an artistic choice as I put it)

EDIT: argh. I obviously do think I'm Narrativist and everyone who disagrees with me is wrong, just realised how insincere the above post sounded, I'm not trying to argue about that at the moment though, just trying to find the lines.
 

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Coming back in to kinda try to go back to the OP. For the following I'll posit that "GM Fiat" is when the person placed in the GM authority role makes a decision about outcomes of play that either a) arbitrarily cancels a player's intent and ability (eg: the Alarm scenario in the OP); or b) in the absence of direct mechanics or guidance rules an outcome in an opaque way or one that feels off to the table (this often turns into an argument).

Give above, let's look quickly at principled OSR play - which apart from some very recent NSR style rulesets primarily relies on community norms. It largely avoids arbitrary fiat by use of extensive prep. The players know that the GM is rolling with rigor and honesty, referring to the outcome of tables to allow probability to have its play, and is generous with information to avoid "gotcha" moments. This allows the players to exercise their personal problem solving skills to explore the world and expect predictable results (or in the case of random tables, expect results that they can impact through how long they spend; and what they declare procedurally). Note though: I've only seen this show up in the actual rules of a game (and even there really just as "you should run this way oh and go read the Principia Apocrypha") very recently.

Lets now turn to the Blades Position and Effect discussion and mechanics, which I think are by far the clearest way to avoid Fiat (arbitrary and opaque decision making) I've personally run (I'm sure the BW family of games do excellent stuff from what @pemerton has written about how the players set the stakes of challenges but I've never personally dealt with those).

Position and Effect takes two things that are often traditionally hidden/spontaneous in conventional games and puts it right front and center in the mechanics and conversation. How bad are things going to go for you if this doesn't go so well, and what are you going to get out of it? To determine the first, the GM proposes how they understand the situation (tier, fictional position, etc all inform this) - and the book tells you very clearly "assume Risky/Standard by default, because our actions are interested in Scoundrels facing trouble and they're competent." The GM must then also say "ok, and here's what you're going to get based on how you're dealing with the risk." From the get go, this is a negotiation, and the player(s) have tons of levers to drive both sides of the equation: they can change their ability (oh, it's a Limited Skirmish here because they're heavily armored? huh didn't realize that - I'm going to toss a grenade instead), aid, trade position for effect (or effect for position, although I rarely see this), pull out items or fine items, propose or ask for Devil's Bargains, Push (and Push to activate abilities), note playbook abilities, do Set Up actions, & etc.

Essentially, the GM just opens the conversation - and it's not over until the table agrees on what the Risk and Reward for the upcoming dice roll is. And then you roll, and the fiction and actions follow.

Note that there's nothing like, unique about Blades' adjudication system that makes this special. Errant, a D20 game, uses Position and Effect as well to tell you how bad a failure is going to be and what you're going to get on a success. Until that dice is rolled and you commit, nothing has been decided.
 

Because the player chose it as an artistic decision. In that sense it isn't really unwelcome and the truly unwelcome would be not being able to choose.

It seems like a form of examining the character’s honor without any risk.

For more trad based play, I think that’s fine since play isn’t generally about examining that kind of character trait in play. If you push into more neo-trad play, then it would at least be a focus of play, even if it still includes no risk in play. In those cases, I can understand the player not expecting that to be anyone’s decision but his.

But in Story Now games? That’s what “play to find out” is all about.
 

It seems like a form of examining the character’s honor without any risk.

For more trad based play, I think that’s fine since play isn’t generally about examining that kind of character trait in play. If you push into more neo-trad play, then it would at least be a focus of play, even if it still includes no risk in play. In those cases, I can understand the player not expecting that to be anyone’s decision but his.

But in Story Now games? That’s what “play to find out” is all about.

I made a post up-thread that deals with the same concerns with an example.


In that post there is a question the player is interested in 'will Midnight ever face her moral culpability?' It gets answered by the player because the player chooses, in response to the fiction, to have it a go a certain way.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you'd say that this isn't really Story Now play because the player is free to choose. That there needs to be a mechanic, say a dice roll, that takes the decision out of the players hands.

EDIT: removed last bit for clarity
 

I think there's room for fruitful voids like in Dogs in the Vineyard where we live what is sin and what is the proper punishment for a sin up to individual dogs. But also room for defined honor and glory in Legend of Five Rings where the fruitful void is more what you are willing to give up for honor and how you deal with the tension of saving face under mounting Strife. I don't think either is more or less playing your character. System just informs different parts of the fiction in each.

I think it's important to engage in the actual nuances of play here and not be reductive.
 


Here's where I'm trying to carve up the lines as cleanly as I can. Is my Apocalypse World play an example of neo-trad/oc play, by this definition?

I would say 'no' because I haven't committed to an outcome, made it my goal as a player, I'm just being responsive to the fiction, letting the fiction choose.

BUT I don't want to argue the point (or not yet anyway), if you think being responsive to the fiction is neo-trad/oc play I'm fine with that for the time being.

My main aim is to see where people stand, in part to assess @manbearcats game state paradigm and how it does or doesn't apply. It might be that I'm actually an OC player and that's why it doesn't apply. Again though, I don't think I am because I'm being responsive to the fiction to find out how things go (which yeah is still just me deciding or making an artistic choice as I put it)

EDIT: argh. I obviously do think I'm Narrativist and everyone who disagrees with me is wrong, just realised how insincere the above post sounded, I'm not trying to argue about that at the moment though, just trying to find the lines.
Interesting!
So, I do see what you are asking. I would say, no, that AW is not neo-trad, probably for reasons mostly like yours. The player is certainly not the final authority on the story arc of their character, which would be true of hard NT play. If you play AW as it is intended, nobody is authoring any arcs at all! The GM probably invents some threats, and those are responsive in some way to inputs from the players, putting pressure on their characters, etc. AW isn't going to drift far into this territory. For one thing the moves aren't really right. Yes, you're always in charge of your PC's actions, but a neo-trad system would, for example, deploy some sort of currency to let the player assert that a given situation is critical arc material and pretty much make it go the way they envision. Something like FATE is quite useful as a system for this kind of play. AW will undermine it, though no doubt there are ways to get there. I just think you'd pretty much have to rewrite the player-facing side of the game.

DW might work a bit more easily. Fudge DR and SL, have the GM always tell the players what validates their character conceptions, and play loose with rules like equipment, let the players largely choose what moves they're triggering and the outcomes on both sides of success. Playbooks may need to be tweaked, etc. I think it is more natural than in AW, which is a bit more raw uncontrolled kind of situation and really pushes the 'crazy' button a lot.
 

I made a post up-thread that deals with the same concerns with an example.


In that post there is a question the player is interested in 'will Midnight ever face her moral culpability?' It gets answered by the player because the player chooses, in response to the fiction, to have it a go a certain way.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you'd say that this isn't really Story Now play because the player is free to choose. That there needs to be a mechanic, say a dice roll, that takes the decision out of the players hands.

EDIT: removed last bit for clarity
Not necessarily. I think in neo-trad play the player would make the decision and that would be that, the story arc goes on how they envisaged it, and probably the choice was planned in some degree well in advance. In Story Now play, sure the player might simply declare something like "I realize how wrong I was." What happens next there depends on the system. AW says "OK, major change in character trajectory, maybe a new playbook." 1KA says "Wait a minute, you must struggle with yourself, what are your attachments? OK, that looks like an Overcome and Attachment to Self! If you fail, then you have unresolved doubts and you try to reject this self-revelation." 1KA could also allow other options, you realize your culpability, and your Self rating goes to +3, you are incapacitated with grief for 3 days, during which time <terrible thing> happens/you are captured by Nobunaga and thrown into a dungeon (your choice). Lots of stuff could happen there. You were in charge of what the character confronted, and to some degree the consequences of the results, but it isn't like you just declare what the impact is on your character.

I'd also note that in AW the GM is most certainly free to make stuff happen which follows from the fiction of you accepting responsibility. Your henchman decides you're an idiot and steals half your stuff and runs off, etc. Exactly what the scope of the GM's response will be is going to depend on the larger situation too. If the result is you stop paying attention to some threat, well, guess what? It manifests, hard move baby! But in better circumstances maybe your henchman just starts to look at you weird and you find some of your equipment stowed in his pack, like he's thinking about splitting...
 

Not necessarily. I think in neo-trad play the player would make the decision and that would be that, the story arc goes on how they envisaged it, and probably the choice was planned in some degree well in advance. In Story Now play, sure the player might simply declare something like "I realize how wrong I was." What happens next there depends on the system. AW says "OK, major change in character trajectory, maybe a new playbook." 1KA says "Wait a minute, you must struggle with yourself, what are your attachments? OK, that looks like an Overcome and Attachment to Self! If you fail, then you have unresolved doubts and you try to reject this self-revelation." 1KA could also allow other options, you realize your culpability, and your Self rating goes to +3, you are incapacitated with grief for 3 days, during which time <terrible thing> happens/you are captured by Nobunaga and thrown into a dungeon (your choice). Lots of stuff could happen there. You were in charge of what the character confronted, and to some degree the consequences of the results, but it isn't like you just declare what the impact is on your character.

I'd also note that in AW the GM is most certainly free to make stuff happen which follows from the fiction of you accepting responsibility. Your henchman decides you're an idiot and steals half your stuff and runs off, etc. Exactly what the scope of the GM's response will be is going to depend on the larger situation too. If the result is you stop paying attention to some threat, well, guess what? It manifests, hard move baby! But in better circumstances maybe your henchman just starts to look at you weird and you find some of your equipment stowed in his pack, like he's thinking about splitting...

On this note, most of my Tuesday group also plays D&D together in the very neo-trad fashion that's the norm among a lot of the newer/younger players right now. I'll often come back from break to them kinda working out the next conflict between their characters, or what scene they're going to have, or how they want to tackle an upcoming thing with an NPC or whatever. Very much from a "lets plan this out" and not a "lets start it and see what happens."

Honestly this is a kinda good example of how mechanics & design create different play spaces. That group is playing a very character focused game with me, and yet each time they play because of the mechanical levers I'm given and the end of session questions and the moves the game permits me during play we wind up doing a heck of a lot of discovery that ends with people going "whoa, wait, how does this affect my beliefs? what memories am I forming out of these traumatic events? how does the pain linger?"
 

I made a post up-thread that deals with the same concerns with an example.


In that post there is a question the player is interested in 'will Midnight ever face her moral culpability?' It gets answered by the player because the player chooses, in response to the fiction, to have it a go a certain way.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you'd say that this isn't really Story Now play because the player is free to choose. That there needs to be a mechanic, say a dice roll, that takes the decision out of the players hands.

EDIT: removed last bit for clarity

I don't know... it seems a bit incomplete. What happened after that?
 

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