Critical Role Announces Age of Umbra Daggerheart Campaign, Starting May 29th

nyvinter said:

From what I've seen, getting new players to try completely different rules is far easier than asking people with 10+ years experience in doing so — especially if one has mainly played one "game" with different flavours.

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See the trick my brother and I used to futureproof our main group against this was just making them play absolutely every game under the sun from about 1992 through 2004, really switching games every few sessions practically. Did it scar them deeply? Perhaps! But who cares! They're still open to trying new games in their 40s!

nyvinter said:

From what I've seen, getting new players to try completely different rules is far easier than asking people with 10+ years experience in doing so — especially if one has mainly played one "game" with different flavours. Old GM trying new rules and explaining them to new people can also be a difficult in the same way, no doubt about that and that can be a big issue.

But new people have very little problem no matter if it's rules light or crunchy as heck, they just leap in.

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My sense of Daggerheart is that it asks for a lot more RP chops than is typical of a teenaged beginner.

As well, part of the reason for teachng D&D is because it's so ubiquitous, and the players will be able to leave my campaign and go join or start another.

Clint_L said:

My sense of Daggerheart is that it asks for a lot more RP chops than is typical of a teenaged beginner.

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I really don't see why this should be an issue with this game and not with D&D.

nyvinter said:

I really don't see why this should be an issue with this game and not with D&D.

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And this is based on your years of experience teaching young teenagers to play RPGs in weekly sessions, running D&D camps for neurodivergent kids, etc.? If so, I would love to hear your reasoning.

Here is mine: from what I have read here and elsewhere, Daggerheart, narratively, seems much more open structured than D&D. For example:

At its heart, Daggerheart plays on two diametrically different game concepts. Its combat engine is a resource management system where players are encouraged to build broken character builds to live out overpowered fantasy fulfillment. However, the narrative system is built around a more freeform collaboration between players and GM, where the story grows without much impediment from rules.

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In general, I like that! However, in my many years of teaching young beginners, I have found that many have a lot of trouble getting into the roleplaying aspect of the game, for a variety of reasons, let alone collaborative, on the fly narrative and world building. So I have found that it works better with such groups to keep the story fairly tight and simple, so as not to overwhelm them. There is a very high learning curve to RPGs like D&D with mechanics alone.

The previous sentence in that description also gives me pause, the bit about power gaming. Together, this seems like a system that I could really get into with experienced players, but I have some concerns about it as an introductory system for a very broad swathe of young teens with various levels of engagement, interest, math skills, social anxiety, and so on.

Edit: The three RPGs I typically use are:

1. Dread. This is ideal for groups that have absolutely no clue or experience with RPGs. It works really well with creative writing classes, or colleagues who just want a taste. It takes literally less than a minute to learn; all they really need is a character concept.

2. Fiasco (original version). I've specifically used this with writing classes during screenwriting units - it's great for practicing narrative flow and act structure!

3. D&D (whatever the current edition is). The backbone of D&D Club. Frankly, I don't see much difference between any rules heavy fantasy RPG, and D&D has the brand awareness and ubiquity, plus DDB, which is an invaluable resource for running short games with kids who don't even own dice, let alone rule books. The ubiquity is extremely important, since the goal is to ween them off into finding their own games.

I'm not seeing how Daggerheart fits into my needs, though I am a very big Critical Role fan (I have enjoyed almost every episode of their content and am currently re-watching Season 2, to give you context), and I love that it is on Demiplane. I might wind up buying it just to try it with my home group, though none of them are gamers like me, so they are pretty content just sticking with D&D, in general, or one-shots/micro-campaigns with other systems as long as they are very simple and in a different genre.

To me, Daggerheart looks like it is designed to work really well for experienced groups who have developed a good rapport. Improv experience would be a definite plus! Basically, it looks like an ideal system for the Critical Role cast.

Clint_L said:

And this is based on your years of experience teaching young teenagers to play RPGs in weekly sessions, running D&D camps for neurodivergent kids, etc.? If so, I would love to hear your reasoning.

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I do not no, so thank you for this context.

While the mechanics are different, I think the flaws of both systems with "there's no hard rules about this, just RP" are in the same place (ie outside of combat) to the same degree. Except that Daggerheart has better defined "how to GM this" than 5e. Granted 5e has a clearer action focus and more rigid turn structure so would you say that it's easier to lean on to that?

But yeah, I've heard from friends that 5e is great for neurodivergent kids in school.

nyvinter said:

But yeah, I've heard from friends that 5e is great for neurodivergent kids in school.

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Entirely depends on the neurodivergent person. We had a few in our group, me included. Wide range of ages. Some loved it some hated it. Some wanted more crunch. Some wanted less crunch. Neurodivergent people are not a monolith. Nothing is one-size-fits-all for any group, but especially for neurodivergent people.

overgeeked said:

Entirely depends on the neurodivergent person. We had a few in our group, me included. Wide range of ages. Some loved it some hated it. Some wanted more crunch. Some wanted less crunch. Neurodivergent people are not a monolith. Nothing is one-size-fits-all for any group, but especially for neurodivergent people.

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For sure. I have severe ADHD which has impacted my life in various ways, and I don't see anything about 5E which would have spoken to me more than other RPGs when I was in school. Indeed, I think it might actually have appealed to me less than a lot of other RPGs around now. It wasn't even that dissimilar back with AD&D, I found that because it was the first real RPG I came across, but once I started looking at other RPGs, I found quite a lot of those more inherently appealing.

nyvinter said:

But yeah, I've heard from friends that 5e is great for neurodivergent kids in school.

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That is a really interesting point. I have a daughter who is neurodivergent, and it would be interesting to see information about this. I've spoken with her doctors but none of them really had any info to share. As she gets to the age where I was playing D&D, I'd love to get her started. I wonder if there is a best game out there to get started with. As much as I'd suggest something rules light, she seems to enjoy other games that are very dense. Thanks for bringing this up as it makes me want to go down the rabbit hole and find out about it.

overgeeked said:

Entirely depends on the neurodivergent person. We had a few in our group, me included. Wide range of ages. Some loved it some hated it. Some wanted more crunch. Some wanted less crunch. Neurodivergent people are not a monolith. Nothing is one-size-fits-all for any group, but especially for neurodivergent people.

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Oh yes, and I think a lot hinges on the one running/teaching it, but also if it's a game people want to learn. My friend's is very much just that of my friend and their circumstances.

(I probably have ADHD but never got an assessment myself and I'm very Kombucha GIF about too much crunch in general and some in particular is a hard no., Just as too light rules — Quest rpg don't work at all for me but does for a friend.)

SteveC said:

That is a really interesting point. I have a daughter who is neurodivergent, and it would be interesting to see information about this. I've spoken with her doctors but none of them really had any info to share. As she gets to the age where I was playing D&D, I'd love to get her started. I wonder if there is a best game out there to get started with. As much as I'd suggest something rules light, she seems to enjoy other games that are very dense. Thanks for bringing this up as it makes me want to go down the rabbit hole and find out about it.

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I'm not sure that D&D is particularly better or worse in itself for neurodivergent kids - it's a pretty crunchy game, so that can work well for some but be really offputting for others. However, with ND kids a big goal is typically to help them establish a friend group, and D&D's ubiquity really helps there. "You play D&D? Me too!"

I would say that if she likes the crunch, as it sounds, D&D is great, as it will be the easiest game to find other kids to play with. However, for just getting a taste of the RP aspect, Dread is my favourite becuse there is almost no entry barrier. Horror-themed, but you could change that.

I wouldn't start with a game like Daggerheart, but I haven't actually played it, so I am just going off reviews. Maybe I'll try it and totally change my mind! I'd love to be wrong.