Homebrew Reading about Class/Subclass Creation, Balance, and Conversion?

Hello all!

I've been playing A5e for a little bit now, and am really finding myself settling into the system to such a degree that I am now wanting to see what I can make within it. I've made up a few items, some minor spells here and there (and subsequently had to tweak them after my players used them in ways I wasn't expecting, thank goodness I have understanding players), and some origin options, but now I have my sights set upon doing some work with classes and sub-classes.

With that, I was wondering if there is any further reading I might be able to do on the subject? I've been taking a hard look at the base classes of course, as well as some third party stuff I have access to (namely the Witch and the Scholar, both of which I quite like) in an effort to take note of certain conventions or patterns that I notice. But I'm starting to feel like my brain turning into soup. So far I've gathered the following:

• Knacks are a must across all classes
• For martial classes, maneuvers are a necessity
• Some classes have a pool of "secondary" features to choose from (i.e. adept and focus features; berserker and furious criticals; sorcerer and metamagic; and warlock and invocations)
• All classes seem to have a sprinkling of "choose one" features, which give usually around 3 options for players to pick from
• All classes also have social features baked into their core class line (and typically these social features are also "choose one" features)

Which is all well and good, but it feels all so... nebulous? Maybe I'm looking for a sacred text when there simply isn't one -- maybe it is more vibes based than raw math -- but I cannot help but wish for something akin to Homebrew and Hacking's Crafting New Heritages and Cultures guide (which I love) that can really break it down into something quite concrete.

All that to say: does anyone have any advice on the subject? Is there maybe somewhere I can go to read more about designing a class for A5e specifically? If the experienced homebrewers among you have tips, I'm all ears! Hell, if someone has broken down the math on how the sausage is made Level-Up designs their classes, I'd be the happiest of campers. I'll take anything and everything at this point.

If I had more spare time, I'd love to do a deep dive and really crunch the numbers on all of this to try and come up with some kind of a rough algorithm myself (if such a thing exists).

Oh well. Time is a luxury.

Anyway, cheers everyone!

I think there's a specific Discord channel for 3PP creators and aspiring

One thing to remember is the three pillars.

Most 5E classes mainly focus on the combat pillar.

The additions that A5E classes bring in reborn core structure are:

— knacks are exploration pillar features
— additional features are often social pillar features

lichmaster said:

I think there's a specific Discord channel for 3PP creators and aspiring

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That sounds great! I'll have to hunt that down.

Morrus said:

One thing to remember is the three pillars.

Most 5E classes mainly focus on the combat pillar.

The additions that A5E classes bring in reborn core structure are:

— knacks are exploration pillar features
— additional features are often social pillar features

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And well damn, I did not expect a designer to chime in. Thanks, man! I'll absolutely keep that in mind. Having a pretty firm "knacks = exploration and additional, mainline features are usually social" rule of thumb to go by will be a great help.

Himbo_Jones said:

That sounds great! I'll have to hunt that down.


And well damn, I did not expect a designer to chime in. Thanks, man! I'll absolutely keep that in mind. Having a pretty firm "knacks = exploration and additional, mainline features are usually social" rule of thumb to go by will be a great help.

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Knacks were all originally called Exploration Knacks. Late in the design process each class got its own name for them as people in playtests were misunderstanding them as being interchangeable between classes. I still prefer the way we had it originally.

Morrus said:

Knacks were all originally called Exploration Knacks. Late in the design process each class got its own name for them as people in playtests were misunderstanding them as being interchangeable between classes. I still prefer the way we had it originally.

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I think the way it is now is better especially when there are features like the berserkers 3rd lvl versatile exploration. I can see why play tester may have gotten confused.

Himbo_Jones said:

All that to say: does anyone have any advice on the subject? Is there maybe somewhere I can go to read more about designing a class for A5e specifically? If the experienced homebrewers among you have tips, I'm all ears! Hell, if someone has broken down the math on how the sausage is made Level-Up designs their classes, I'd be the happiest of campers. I'll take anything and everything at this point.

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Hello, I'm Jessy, the creator behind Plant Witch Press and the architect behind the 3PP bloodblade class!

For class design, the number one best piece of advice I can give you is to have a strong throughline/fantasy of what your class is about. Pathfinder adopts the approach of creating very narrow class concepts and building around those, and it works for the smograsbord, feat-based character-building system they have in place. But 5e and its derivative/adjacent systems tend to have much broader class concepts and let the specificity come from its archetypes/subclasses. To use the marshal from the Adventurer's Guide as an example, at its base it is a class structured around leadership and support. How exactly the details of the fantasy of being a "commander" manifests is tied up in its archetypes. A marshal can be anything from Theoden rallying the Rohirrim at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, to a pirate captain, to the leader of a covert spy network. At its core, a class should support any number of manifestations of its driving theme.

As for necessities, you've touched on a number of them yourself:

• "Knacks" (as I've taken to referring to them in aggregate) are absolutely a neccessity. These are typically tied to the social/exploration pillars of play, granting additional proficiencies, expertise dice, and abilities that are not directly related to combat. If you create a class in A5e they will need their own list of Knacks at their disposal, so definitely think about that as you're designing base class features. Also bear in mind that there is precedent for a class getting proficiency in another class's Knacks at higher levels, so that is also an option at your disposal if you so choose. In terms of how each class gains Knacks at level-up, I used the existing classes to guage how often the bloodblade got a new one. I ultimately settled on a ranger's progression, but bear in mind the more often they receive a Knack, the more you have to write. Most classes have something in the neighborhood of 6-8 Knacks. The ranger has 17. The bloodblade has 21. The rogue has 24.
• For martial classes you'll want to grant them access to Maneuver Traditions. Shoot for 2 traditions to be proficient to start with. I tend to avoid more than that (at least initially) because in A5e the fighter's core class is built around "All Maneuvers All the Time" and I don't want to detract from that. If you're designing a martial class, have most of its saves derive from maneuver DC. If it's a spellcaster, saves come from spell save DC. If they're half-casters, pick which one makes the most sense for the given ability.
• The "choose one" features are prevalent in A5e, and I see them as a way to keep classes feeling fresh with different choices. If you're designing archetypes for existing classes, definitely try to keep the "choose one" features consistent with any preexisting archetypes. If you're designing your own class from the ground up, determine which levels make the most sense to have those "chose one" features. Just remember that the more of those you have, the more balls you'll have to juggle in terms of overall game balance.
• Social features should absolutely be baked in to every class. How that manifests is really up to you. Just remember that even the traditionally "meathead" class options like fighter and barbarian have some very interesting tools in their toolboxes to solve problems outside of "HIT WITH STICK."

As someone who has designed a class for A5e, I would definitely recommend starting small with archetypes, magic items, spells, and other things to get your creative juices warmed up and familiar with how the system works in a mechanical level before diving into a whole class. Classes have A LOT of moving parts, especially in this system. If you feel up to the challenge I'll by no means stop you, however, and look forward to what you have cooked up!