D&D 5E (2024) How do you handle surprised but won initiative?

Voadam said:

So in 5e 24 how do you handle someone who is surprised, but unaware of a hidden ambusher?

From the SRD:

Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant rolls Initiative; they make a Dexterity check that determines their place in the Initiative order. The GM rolls for monsters. For a group of identical creatures, the GM makes a single roll, so each member of the group has the same Initiative.

Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.

So an ambusher has hidden well and the whole party is surprised but someone wins initiative over the ambusher. A lone ambusher attacking a multiperson party this is not that unlikely.

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The conversation has likely moved on, but just my $0.02 on the OP...

It shouldn't be likely. Lone ambushers shouldn't be expecting to get the drop on entire groups.

Voadam said:

I see two ways to handle this.

1 The high initiative surprised get their place set in initiative but no real combat actions until after they are aware they are in combat.

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Nope. Surprise puts disadvantage on the roll. That's it. If someone is lucky, they can still beat you. Deal with it.

Voadam said:

2 They are aware something is up, but no idea what. They could dodge, or look around and make a search perception check, or cast a prep spell/use a power, or move, or do something else appropriate.

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If they are acting before the enemy, they are working with a dearth of information, but "no idea" is probably too much. If they've won initiative despite disadvantage, they've caught wind of the start of whatever the enemy was doing, and are just fast or lucky enough to react to it.

Like, if the bandits are leading with a flurry of arrows before the footmen close in for melee, they character realizes there are some archers there.

Umbran said:

Lone ambushers shouldn't be expecting to get the drop on entire groups.

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I'm not quite certain I am reading you right here.

A successfully hidden sniper should not expect to get a shot off before anyone in the group reacts?

Voadam said:

I'm not quite certain I am reading you right here.

A successfully hidden sniper should not expect to get a shot off before anyone in the group reacts?

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I think what comes to mind when we say "hidden sniper" to a modern audience is outside the design of D&D combat.

The effective ranges of modern snipers are several times what D&D weapons reach, and real-world people are far, far more fragile compared to bullets than D&D characters are to arrows or bolts.

In addition, D&D is at this point not designed to produce real-world combat,, but instead is designed to produce cinematic action adventure combat.

In neither way, then, is the D&D combat system to handle what you're talking about - single combatants producing surprise killshots at hundreds of yards and getting away clean isn't what the base combat system is built to produce. If you want that, you should work with supernatural abilities that produce the effect.

Voadam said:

I'm not quite certain I am reading you right here.

A successfully hidden sniper should not expect to get a shot off before anyone in the group reacts?

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If they win initiative, then yes.

Also remember that an arrow has lower velocity and a higger arch than a bullet. So even if someone shoots from 600ft, there is time to react.

What I wanted to try was anouncing the actions of the first round in a combat and using the table of the 5.0 DMG to modify initiative. Then after that going to cyclic initiative. Also treating it as a round only consitent of reactions (like readied actions)

Example:
Ambusher: attack the wizard with an arrow.
Cleric: I don my shield.
Wizard: I cast the shield spell if needed.
Warlock: with my warcaster feat, I can cast eldritch blast (added functionality).
Monk: I just dodge.
Rogue: I use uncanny dodge.
Fighter: I move towards the ambusher.

So:
Ambusher gets +2 initiative for the ranged attack from 30ft range with arrow already nocked on top of advantage for the ambush.

Wizard gets +5 initiative for using a reaction spell

Warlock gets +0 initiative for using his eldritch blast.

Cleric: -2 initiative for using a complex action (retrieving a shield from somewhere and then donning it)

Monk: +0 initiative, because for dodging they do not need to handle anything.

Rogue: +5 initiative for a reaction

Fighter: -5 initiative, because they have to run their full speed to reach the ambusher.

Then everyone rolls initiative.

Or something like that.

Umbran said:

I think what comes to mind when we say "hidden sniper" to a modern audience is outside the design of D&D combat.

The effective ranges of modern snipers are several times what D&D weapons reach, and real-world people are far, far more fragile compared to bullets than D&D characters are to arrows or bolts.

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In D&D, however, that hidden "sniper" could be dropping a fireball on the targets; and those can hurt.

Umbran said:

In addition, D&D is at this point not designed to produce real-world combat,, but instead is designed to produce cinematic action adventure combat.

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Some of us try to push back against this trend...

Umbran said:

In neither way, then, is the D&D combat system to handle what you're talking about - single combatants producing surprise killshots at hundreds of yards and getting away clean isn't what the base combat system is built to produce. If you want that, you should work with supernatural abilities that produce the effect.

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On this, I agree. But there's a very large middle ground between "a 200-yard killshot and a clean escape" and "the ambusher might not even get a shot off even though in theory it's that shot that starts the whole combat".

Voadam said:

I'm not quite certain I am reading you right here.

A successfully hidden sniper should not expect to get a shot off before anyone in the group reacts?

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The hairs on the back of your neck stand up. Whether you believe it in real life or not, its a solid fantasy trope. It's certainly in Conan. The character may not be able to see the threat, but they are aware that there is one, and could, for example, run for cover.