AI/LLMs AI art bans are going to ruin small 3rd party creators

On a related note, I just got back as a vendor from a convention (Gamestorm), and most conventions I've been to, if any vendor showed up with AI work, they would be run out of the building (It actually happened in a big Chicago comicon a year or so ago IIRC).

That seems like a majority to me. Not only a majority who won't buy "your" stuff, but you're asking for a lot more trouble than just lost customers by insisting on using AI for published work.

The good news is it doesn't have to be a permanent death mark. When Midjourney first came out a few years ago, I admit I even used it. Then I talked with my artist friends and learned how it worked and immediately refused to use it any longer. Life is about learning and being better, even after making mistakes. So I'd suggest that folks who insist on using AI listen to all of the other folks who have already run that road, and save yourself some trouble.

VHawkwinter said:

The population as a whole? I would guess not a ton. But the population of people who buy TTRPG products that aren't made by Hasbro and on sale at Barnes and Noble? It certainly seems to be many. I don't have stats, but 1/2 to 2/3 of them wouldn't surprise me.

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I know ENworld doesn't represent the gaming world as a whole, but it's a fair metric for certain things; at least a good start on getting a general idea. So I'd suggest folks look at this thread and any number of the same threads we have every 2 months and look at how many people in our community are pro-AI, and how many are not.

daydreamengine said:

But then there are those that are in favor of AI or just don't care.

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Yep. Those exist. But what percentage of people in your target demographic are those?

daydreamengine said:

At the end of the day, that's really all the Anti-AI crowd can do, isn't it?

'Do this, or we won't buy your sh**t, and we might even be mean to you.'

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You say that like you know you don't need their business. Do you know that you would have enough customers without their patronage? Have you done market research of some kind, or is it a blind gamble?

daydreamengine said:

Why do I even want you as a fan of my work at that point?

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To not lose money, if nothing else?

daydreamengine said:

Also, they money I lose out on those people who won't buy I'm saving in production costs. Maybe more.

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The majority of the production costs in making an RPG are in designing it, not printing and storage. Like software. Unless you're a large company, you are probably depending on Print on Demand, or you're doing a Kickstarter. What you need if you're making a TTRPG product isn't avoiding production costs, it's sufficient customers to fund product development.

You are taking a gamble at how many are for, against, or do not care. I would speculate those who do not care are outside of the enthusiast market entirely and only buy Hasbro products.

So it comes down to whether there are enough AI enthusiasts who will buy your thing, to justify making it; vs how many people your choice to sell an AI art product will repulse.

Regardless of how you feel about AI generated products personally, that sounds like a risky proposition to me. I certainly haven't encountered this big spending TTRPG+AI-enthusiast crowd.

Sacrosanct said:

Yeah, I do, and I don't think you're reading the same thing everyone else is. No one said you have to use stock art if you don't want to or don't like it. I brought it up originally because of the discussion around people who want art but can't/don't want to pay for the "professional" look that that the big publishers have.

It was a solution to a problem. If you don't want or like that solution, no one is forcing you to take it. But then it becomes your problem and no one is going to give you sympathy because you don't want it.

But understand that if you're using something that is stealing from another person, then don't be surprised if a lot of people think pretty low of you. That's the result of your actions. No one else's fault. And frankly, reeks of entitlement to me. "I want to have my product look just like the big publishers who pay artists for that work, but I don't want or can't pay the same."

How do y'all think exchange of goods and services work? Do you think people should just give you stuff for free because you want it? What about their livelihood? Does that not matter?

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I'm still not getting this 'AI is theft' argument and never have.

There's a legal definition for theft. This isn't it. I'm not giving a stuff about moral or ethical definitions because morals and ethics vary from person-to-person, culture-to-culture. At this point, and now that I've been educated on the process of how AI art generators are trained, 'theft' feels like a buzzword that people use to shame others for using AI--no matter how they choose to.

At this point, I'm seeing grannies getting shamed for enhancing old family photos. Why would someone even do that besides needing moral superiority?

Mod Note: language

VHawkwinter said:

Yep. Those exist. But what percentage of people in your target demographic are those?


You say that like you know you don't need their business. Do you know that you would have enough customers without their patronage? Have you done market research of some kind, or is it a blind gamble?


To not lose money, if nothing else?


The majority of the production costs in making an RPG are in designing it, not printing and storage. Like software. Unless you're a large company, you are probably depending on Print on Demand, or you're doing a Kickstarter. What you need if you're making a TTRPG product isn't avoiding production costs, it's sufficient customers to fund product development.

You are taking a gamble at how many are for, against, or do not care. I would speculate those who do not care are outside of the enthusiast market entirely and only buy Hasbro products.

So it comes down to whether there are enough AI enthusiasts who will buy your thing, to justify making it; vs how many people your choice to sell an AI art product will repulse.

Regardless of how you feel about AI generated products personally, that sounds like a risky proposition to me. I certainly haven't encountered this big spending TTRPG+AI-enthusiast crowd.

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My current-and-growing 300 Substackers do not care, and they're the only ones I'm concerned about impressing. No one in this community is trying to go stadium-status.

daydreamengine said:

I'm still not getting this 'AI is theft' argument and never have.

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Clearly. Start by looking up why copyright and trademark laws exist.

Here’s the definition



While I am not a lawyer, I have read from many lawyers how copyright infringement is theft because it’s depriving the owner of control over what is theirs, and deprives them of monetary value (like lost sales due to piracy).

Sacrosanct said:

I know ENworld doesn't represent the gaming world as a whole, but it's a fair metric for certain things; at least a good start on getting a general idea. So I'd suggest folks look at this thread and any number of the same threads we have every 2 months and look at how many people in our community are pro-AI, and how many are not.

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Yeah, and it matches the impression I've gotten from Facebook TTRPG groups as well. Facebook Programming and IT groups are more pragmatic, and it seems everyone is using AI assistance for coding to some extent, but people roast vibe coders who think they don't need to know how to program, and fall apart when their poorly assembled vibe coded app has all kinds of security vulnerabilities or breaks in ridiculous ways. Which is how I landed in my position of "use it for programming assistance; maybe use it as a search / research assistant to find the sources you need to read; but do not have it make your images or write your words" perspective. (I do better work than the AI myself anyway, though yes it takes longer).

daydreamengine said:

My current-and-growing 300 Substackers do not care, and they're the only ones I'm concerned about impressing. No one in this community is trying to go stadium-status.

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300 Substackers​

Well, you do you. I dunno how many of those will pay you for your posts, but ultimately that's your business.

Stadium Status​

I had only assumed you wanted to help pay your bills. I didn't think you expected to strike it rich.

VHawkwinter said:

Yep. Those exist. But what percentage of people in your target demographic are those?


You say that like you know you don't need their business. Do you know that you would have enough customers without their patronage? Have you done market research of some kind, or is it a blind gamble?


To not lose money, if nothing else?


The majority of the production costs in making an RPG are in designing it, not printing and storage. Like software. Unless you're a large company, you are probably depending on Print on Demand, or you're doing a Kickstarter. What you need if you're making a TTRPG product isn't avoiding production costs, it's sufficient customers to fund product development.

You are taking a gamble at how many are for, against, or do not care. I would speculate those who do not care are outside of the enthusiast market entirely and only buy Hasbro products.

So it comes down to whether there are enough AI enthusiasts who will buy your thing, to justify making it; vs how many people your choice to sell an AI art product will repulse.

Regardless of how you feel about AI generated products personally, that sounds like a risky proposition to me. I certainly haven't encountered this big spending TTRPG+AI-enthusiast crowd.

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Costs? That's a page for a Solo Expansion I'm doing. AI-Generated.

It costs me

Nothing.

Neither do any of the other pages.

I do not have to negotiate with artists I've never wanted to work with, I do not need to collaborate unless I want to, I do not need to hire three different copyeditors, I do not need to deal with artist ego or their often-lack of reliability (never worked with one that could meet a deadline, and Fiverr is well-known for its scammers)...there are a lot of things I no longer have to concern myself with in terms of producing my TTRPG.

That makes the experience so, so much more rewarding, and the time of production is halved.

Can you understand why AI hasn't gone away yet, not even in the TTRPG where it's not always welcome? We love making stuff in this space as much as anyone else, but AI is a tool and nothing more--it cuts out the drama, the resource expenditures, and the middle-men.

So at a certain point, we're willing to face the backlash. But the overhead is so low that it's impossible to lose money, even if thousands of people who don't like AI opt out of buying.

Mod Note: language

I’ve worked with lots of artists over the past 25 years. 95% have been great to work with. Reading these posts, and it seems to me it’s not the artist’s egos that are the problem …