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Kinda makes the "4e defenders" look a little bit silly. Yes, 4e got a lot of unwarranted criticism, but that doesn't mean it didn't get warranted criticism as well. Skill challenges looked strange from the get-go, and a lack of detailed examples indicated (to me at least) that they either knew...

It would be great if somebody followed up on this and asked: 1) How many party members can use Aid Another if there is no time pressure? i.e. why won't there always be a +8 from Aid Another on all checks assuming a 5 PC party? 2) Is Aid Another possible when there is a time constraint?

Seems to indicate that the design team is aware of the problem, or in their words, "we are aware of the issues concerning Skill Challenges." Sometimes it happens. As you recall, 3e was released with a version of the "Haste" spell which was nutsoid powerful. WOTC recognized this and fixed it...

It is really easy, fun, cinematic and cool to describe a scene where the PC's roll: 18, 12, 1, 16, 12, 15, 10 Particularly where the critical failure is not linked to the most important PC, and the average skill bonus is around +9. It sounds like a fun skill challenge -- since they overcame...

Way to insult as many people as possible, while coming across as ignorant. You would not know it, since you didn't read "the math thread," but nobody is claiming that "4E is broken." Sheesh. And in this thread, a number of questions have been raised about the availability and/or likelihood...

I'd like to point out that nobody is complaining about the initial "con value = hit points" change, or the flat HP values for each level thereafter, or a million other changes WOTC made to the game. Either the people who hate WOTC are simply too tired to complain about everything, and have...

I am going to do my "good deed" for the day. I'd suggest you just stop. Seriously. Just let it go. It's not a big deal, and it's not worth getting worked up about, and if you insist on continuing this debate... well, let's just say you are not... you are probably not presenting yourself in...

Well that's the thing. AtomicPope gets them to work by paying close attention to various skill boosts (and possibly misreading Beguiler's Tongue), and loading up on skill boost magic items. Cool. Other players in the "Math Heavy" thread have indicated near continual Skill Challenge losses...

This.

As others have said, the problems with skill challenges are many, as currently presented. Your comments are interesting but don't "fix" much. 1) Extremely experienced gamers can't figure out what numbers should be used in a skill challenge, and what bonuses should be allowed. At the very...

No sir, no. Take that weak PR and keep it to yourself, or use it to amuse the children. I have a math degree myself, and grew up in an academic household, so again let me repeat: no sir. While it is true that set design is an art, it is also true that if you were to ask around, nobody's life...

I love interdepartmental donnybrooks. I'm on the side of pure math vs. the stats guy. What about you? I give pure math 3 to 1 over the Pascal variable. Taking bets now!

"genious"

I've returned from a long, unhappy trip to RL (real life), and I don't ever want to go back there. Ever. Not now, not tomorrow, not in twenty years. After perusing the long thread, I have have a few simple remarks to make, because people repeatedly think I am being dictatorial in my demands...

Sure, of course. But the traditional bildungsroman also starts with the protagonist wet-behind-the-ears (low, low level). That's just the trope. Sister Carrie goes to the big city; that's a typical bildungsroman. And most of the fantasy I read when young, and I assume most that was published...

Great. It will make the crazy wild zotty tricky stuff (from level 1) lovers happy. I'd like to see crazy wild zotty tricky stuff (from level 5) or so. (learning along the way, of course, growing, exploring, discovering that it's not that smart to sniff open containers of pepper, the best...

In the fantasy GENRE, very few novels start with the protagonist at level 28 of power. In fact, none do that I ever read. I'm sure they exist. They just are rather outside the norm (not that that is a bad thing; but I'm looking at the norm here). It's part of the fantasy bildungsroman genre...

I can do better. 1/4 hit points. No, 1/8 hit points. What about 1 hit point? PC's as minions? Hm... I am onto something here. But no, that's not the point, as you know. Even with 1/4 hit points the 4e level 1 PC's will just be heroes made of cardboard. The problem isn't the hit points...

This might be true as far as the fluff. It wasn't true as far as many games were played (mine and others I have seen). Meaning, give a street-wise urchin on the street a dagger and this equates, roughly, to a Rogue1. Joe from the farm with a borrowed sword and some training from crazy cousin...

Thanks for all the interesting and mostly polite responses; except for the above, and Hong's, of course, which are (as required by contract) beside the point. For the responder above: yes of course I can start them weak in 4e, I just don't want to be obliged to create house rules to do this...