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That doesn't seem as a big reveal, as I guess this is what all the prewritten adventures essentialy are doing? I experimented with such division of GM power in my game storyboard. I found it great fun, but my aproach to it there gave a very different feel than traditional role playing games...

I just wanted to point out that you might not even wait for future game designs to find a counter example. The mode in which I have played the card game Mao involve explicit rule making power as a clear part of the lusory fabric. Without going into the details, the idea is that there is a "base...

This is indeed a very common pattern, but not an universal one. In Ars Magica it is for instance possible to flesh out the covenant quite in detail before even starting to create any magus. I ran a D&D 5ed oneshot, where players were not allowed to make characters before they had detailed the...

No, no, no! I can't think of any rpg where reading the table is not a thing! However some games put more restrictions on what you can do based on those readings than others. I also believe we have established earlier in the thread that the AW GM do have very high authority, just not quite as...

I think this touches on a crucial point. You talking about people befriended dying as something to avoid, or getting character development as something you desire. This is a common mode of play today, but not the only. In the purest form of this mode of play it can be argued that perma death...

I think this is the claim that is hard to swallow. A text of any significant length without any ambiguities is in itself basicaly inconceivable to me. And even if such en incredible feat of language was acheived, human errors like misreading, incorrect memory and pushing the limits is bound to...

No, it is not used as a rule zero example. The connection I propose is that the idea that the DM has ultimate control over the rules has had effect on how players behave in the cocked dice situation. It is hence a potentisal symtom of covert GM authority over rules. I have observed qualitative...

I am sorry. I expressed myself clumsingly. To my minor defence, I thought the second sentence contrasting to rules would make it clear that rules uncertanties was at least part of what I had in mind. The formulation stands as is in that in D&D DMs tend resolve a wide range of situations, not...

But isnt this exactly the kind of sitiation both rule zero proponents and critics most commonly point to when they discuss D&D? That the DM need to fill in the blanks that the written rules of D&D do not concern themselves with, like courtly intrigue? In my mind it is exactly these things that...

Consequences, yes. But how if there is ever anything unclear about the rules? Granted, that situation might be very rare in a well written game; but even in extremely well designed, tested and narrow games like chess there come up tricky rules questions at occasions, requiering referees to make...

I am back! I found it impossible to read everything properly, but I think I have gotten the gist of what has been going on. But there is a point I feel has been a bit hanging. I think @Aldarc made a very strong argument how rule 0 is likely a dead end when analyzing RPGs today in context of...

Ok, time for some history clarifications again. My understanding of the situation is that D&D was originally phrased as a inspiration booklet for minimal rule refered play (and as marketing material for chainmail, a more traditional rules based wargame). Actually putting structure to it making...

Ah, while I am at it. Including in writing any procedure for adding, changing or overriding rules during active play would likely according to my thinking qualify as adding similar kind of flexibility as the procedure of handing the GM control over the rules. I actually find it a bit puzzling...

And here I think the key to our communication problem might be :) I am one of those having argued D&D's flexibility over for instance dungeon world or burning wheel. And that has purely been on the trivial basis of D&D handing explicit rules control to the DM. If a group decides to hand rules...

That is sort of where our conversation go in circles. It is fully true that D&D not only do not handle these easily. It actually do not handle it at all. The reason is that it trough rule 0 hands the reins to the DM to handle those. And I can say that I as a DM can handle all of those with more...

Hey! Are you saying that the entire "no rule zero" noise was a pure strawman argument?? I think very few would claim that it is impossible to play most rule zero games without making changes to or add rules (the original D&D is the only rpg I can remember having seen a reasonable argument for...

Your last sentence here made me realise another critical dimension to flexibility. That is flexibility according to which axes. I would for instance say D&D is for instance very rigid compared to gurps or fate with regard to setting. This is due to the implied setting in the character building...

Thank you for breaking down my statement in much more understandable pieces! I think I adressed your second concern in my previous post. As for this - I think if you are looking game theoretically on what constitutes the start of a game when thinking of in on terms of a set of defined mechanical...

This is a bit mind boggling to me. The basis for all my statements regarding rule zero is based on the background that I have read a lot of criticisms of it as a sign of bad design, and that that was a very heavy deal in the advertisement of the early forge games. The argument was that the...

Yes, I am in no way advocating D&D being exceptional. I think almost all traditional RPGs share this flexibility property. It is only in the context of comparing with games where the rules limit GM control, that I think D&D 5ed compares favorably in terms of flexibility. And I believe it was D&D...