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This confuses events in the world and events in the fiction. In the world, the roll fails and the GM narrates something. Cause and effect. In the fiction, the sullen Elf sings and the guard, hearing him, comes and harasses him. Cause and effect. The GM is not doing anything "non-diegetic"...

I am posting in response to it. That was the whole point of my post.

This makes no sense to me, for two reasons. (1) When the GM narrates the guard harassing Aedhros, or narrates a cook startled by the intruder coming through the door, the downstream consequence is known and is no longer in the future. The causal chain has been established. (2) AD&D, which is a...

It's a pulp-y fantasy city, of the sort that is fairly common in REH stories. How does the logic of the setting not indicate that a guard might be there? Or if we're talking about a kitchen, how does the logic of the setting not indicate that a guard might be there? Now if you insist that...

I didn't. @AlViking did. In my reply to AlViking, I pointed out that necessary conditions aren't causes, whereas the causes that @hawkeyfan and I had pointed to are INUS conditions.

Necessary conditions aren't causes.

There is nothing "illogical" about a guard approaching a singing person. There is nothing "non-diegetic" about a guard approaching a singing person. And it did not preclude the other player at the table - ie me - having my chance to play. This is true of all RPGing. You haven't actually...

I've only ever come across "goal and approach" as an idea for doing action resolution in 5e D&D. I don't know how it works. "Intent and task" is the core of the BW resolution system. A declared action has an intent - which will relate to what is at stake in the scene, which in turn will have...

But the failure - ie the dice coming up as they did - was the cause of the GM narrating the guard.

I didn't say it's the cause. I said it's a necessary condition. I'm following Mackie here, in treating causes as being insufficient but necessary components of unnecessary but sufficient conditions (INUS conditions). This is also sometimes express as NESS (necessary element of a set of...

I'm not sure it's that strange. The posters who object to connecting the consequence to a player-side dice roll take it for granted that the GM's ideas about what to do next with the fiction correlate to the actual causal pathways and trajectories that are unfolding in the fiction. Related to...

Thank you. As you can read, I think that if the surprise/perception mechanic is supposed to be sufficiently representational, than I know of no RPG mechanic that won't get across the line. Which obviously is not what the manifesto author intended. To be clear, I am not criticising D&D. I am...

It's a necessary condition. But the analogue to the door scenarios would be this: had you failed to get out of bed, would that have been the cause of you not reading this. And the answer to that is "yes". (Because failing to get out of bed would be a necessary component of a sufficient...

No. I didn't say that. I said that it could. Here's an actual example: D&D does not care about the nature of injury suffered when a person gets hurt, and has no rules for representing this. Other RPGs do: for instance, Rolemaster, RuneQuest, Burning Wheel. AD&D does not care about the degree...

Obviously. I'm not confused about people being surprised. My post is about the mechanic, and how it relates to the time sequence of events at the table compared to the time sequence of events in the fiction. Of course it can. D&D just happens not to. Yes, there are supposed to be reasons in the...

You seem to be confused. "Intent and task" is Burning Wheel resolution. It can be applied in other games played with scene-framing and stakes (eg Prince Valiant and Cthulhu Dark, I say based on experience). But 10+ is a reference to Apocalypse World and similar games, which do not use...

I don't think @Lanefan has significant play experience or other familiarity with RPGs other than AD&D and variants, and so I don't give much credence to his views about what is or is not possible with various sorts of techniques not found in AD&D. But suppose the action declaration is to find...

Which game is "this game"? If it's any good, it will have rules for permissible action declarations.

First, you work out what the rules of the game are for permissible action declarations. Because at this stage, it appears that there is no agreement on that between the player and the GM.

I'm not really following this ruby discussion. But to me it seems to be asking how would you resolve an arbitrary action declaration made in the context of arbitrary scene framing, using a methodology that is applicable to games based around very particular sorts of scene framing to support...