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How so?

In your example, it was the front door to your house. Presumably you're not going to give up trying to go home! This isn't always true. @hawkeyefan and I have given examples - the drenching rain, the ringing phone, the house fire - that illustrate why not. I'm sure this is a true description of...

Just to add to this: Baker is primarily discussing game design. And he is doing so, at a point in his career as a designer which is the culmination of decades of work. Contrast what he says now with this, from 4-10-04: You'll have to forgive the GNS talk, or not, I mean, it is how I think...

It's also silly from the point of view of philosophy of action and causation. A post of mine from a few years ago makes the point: Consider the famous example from Donald Davidson ("Actions, Reasons, and Causes" (1963)): I flip the switch, turn on the light, and illuminate the room...

This claim is literally false. I play both Burning Wheel and Torchbeaer 2e. And these use different rules for determining the weather.

This post of yours made me think straight away of this from Edwards: Consider the previous example of a group who has arrived at the agreement to role-play a vampire-character game, with three members who have radically different GNS and Premise approaches but share a superficial commitment to...

Edwards wrote this over 20 years ago: [Social Contract [Exploration [Creative Agenda --> [Techniques]]]]. The panoply of Techniques being employed over time either satisfy or fail to satisfy one or more Creative Agendas. Techniques include IIEE, Drama/Karma/Fortune, search time & handling time...

I think your example, of the PCs in the library, is something that would come up in exploratory-oriented play (say, "substantial exploration" sim or in a lower-stakes moment of "story hour" sim) or in gamist play that accepts a heavy degree of exploration. You describe the players asking...

That is all generous, and appreciated. The GM's reward, when presenting their material for "story hour" or "substantial exploration", should be the players' enthusiastic engagement/exploration. If the players "do their duty" of exploring the stuff, but in the manner of "eating their vegetables"...

Not really. It's like saying that an engine that was previously a truck engine is being used in a plane. In the case of RPG design, Edwards not talking about the inherent nature of the methods (there is no such thing); he's referring to methods previously used with the purpose of supporting...

The word "game" can be used in many ways, to describe lots of different human (and other animal) activities. In the context of RPGs, which tend to be rather elaborate affairs, it suggests a structured leisure activity with a degree of intellectuality to it. The intellectuality establishes a...

Torchbearer 2e is close to this.

You are correct about my reading of Tuovinen. I see nothing in there that changes the previously-suggested boundaries between "narrativist" and "simulationist" play. All the types of "sim" play that Tuovinen identifies are play that Edwards's essays characterise as sim. And it is the contrast...

That would be from me, wouldn't it, in relation to AD&D? And me and others in relation to 4e D&D.

The answer to your question is found, implicitly, Tuovinen's essay: some Simmy games are just more easily drifted towards Narrativism, while others are easier for Gamism. Sure, Fate can do Narrativism, but if you think that proves that Sim and Nar are similar, you should try playing Battletech...

A slight elaboration on the above reply to @clearstream: It can't be true both that Baker's rejection of big model analysis is correct, and that it is meaningful to talk about "narrativist" approaches to play having been inspired by "simulationist" approaches.

Not really. It's a turn of phrase. The whole clause is: "when you-as-player get proactive about an emotional thematic issue, poof, you're out of Sim" - so if the whole of play is based around player proactivity about emotional thematic issues, then it never was Sim. Or to put it another way: you...

This is a description of "simulationist" play, if that term is used in the sense that Edwards and Tuovinen use it: the GM invests their content (prepared for "story hour" and/or "substantial exploration") with significance. It is not talking about law vs chaos as a premise for "narrativist"...

It's clear that you're frustrated, but I'm struggling a bit to work out what I'm missing. You seem to be taking the Tuovinen essay seriously. If I'm wrong about that, and you disagree with it, you're going to have to tell me expressly, because if you're trying to imply that I've missed the...

But the Chaosium Stormbringer doesn't really pose order vs chaos as a premise. It's more like background colour.