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I have no objection to minimalist stealth rules. I think 2014’s stealth rules - you can’t hide from a creature that can see you, a creature can see you if its Perception check (rolled or passive) beats your Stealth check, the DM determines when a Stealth check is necessary or possible - are...

I mean, I sort of do. The strength of the medium is in having a live human running the show, able to make judgement calls when the rules don’t suit the situation, so there’s a disinclination towards anything that might curtail the GM’s ability to exercise that judgment. There’s also a history...

I’m not saying the rules need to be rigidly defined, I’m saying that if they’re intended to be more loose and open for DM interpretation they should SAY SO, and they should say it clearly and explicitly. That is clear and explicit. The stealth rules are not.

Because that’s how game rules work…? I don’t feel like “rulebooks should explain the rules clearly and explicitly” requires justification…

I’m open to that being possible, but it needs to be clearly and explicitly stated that this is the intent.

This distinction was a lot clearer in the 2014 rules, when being invisible was an entirely separate condition from being hidden. Being unseen but not hidden (for example, if you are invisible but out in the open) would mean attackers know your location, and so can target you with attacks, but...

Oh, sorry, I had meant it wouldn’t have required a change from the way it worked in 2014. So the fact that it changed to no longer work that way in 2024 is weird.

It wouldn’t have required a change at all, visibility and detection were treated separately by the 2014 rules. They actually had to make pretty significant changes to remove that distinction. Why on Earth they decided to do such a thing is a mystery for the ages.

I mean, it wasn’t defined as a condition, but this was basically how it worked prior to the 2024 revision. Being invisible made it so a creature was effectively blinded when attempting to target you - they had disadvantage on attack rolls and perception checks targeting you and you had advantage...

The problem is, “some action that reveals you” is not fully defined. I mean, we know that attacking, casting a spell with a verbal component, and making a sound louder than a whisper qualify as an action that reveals you. But we don’t know if that list is exhaustive. In particular, the text...

This one: It is probably a little too complex to fit 5e’s design aesthetic, especially early 5e, but it serves as a solid starting point. In particular, I that it happens after you’ve moved with the results determining if you remained hidden during that movement, I like that it’s very clear...

Again, there is no FUNCTIONAL difference between those two things.

Gleemax would have been the move, for sure

Regardless of how rocky the process of getting there was, my point is that they did eventually land on pretty much perfect stealth rules. They could have just kept those for 5e, but decided something that more explicitly centered the conversation of play was more fitting for 5e’s design goals...

That’s not meaningfully different from being transparent until they search or you reveal yourself. Hence why I’ve been saying functionally transparent.

No, the 2014 version also worked in exactly this way, where if your AC was less than 16 it became 16 and if your AC was 16 or higher it didn’t do anything, and the old sage advice confirmed as much. The new wording just removes the ambiguity, but that was always how it was supposed to work.

Yes, if you read something the text doesn’t say and the developer clarifications counter-indicate, it works just fine!

Not really. 4e did it just fine.

It doesn’t make you literally transparent in the narrative, but it does seem to make you functionally transparent, mechanically speaking. You can’t be seen without special senses, unless they succeed a Perception check, which uses an action.

If I’m hidden and a creature with Blindsight or Truesight sees me, am I still hidden? No. Being hidden is a game state that gives you the Invisible condition. If a creature finds you, you’re no longer hidden and lose that condition, as explained in the Hide action (see appendix C of the Player’s...