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Okay, this is helpful; it gives a clear picture of your style of play. I can see that you'd be miserable with light mechanics under this style of play. I mean, take away what the rules give you, there's nothing left! But the people who are advocating rules-light games Do Not Play This Style...

True, if "the hobby" means exploring party of adventures overcomes tactical challenges posed by the GM. A dungeon is helpful because it limits in-game options. But a player still has to learn how to reconcile what they'd imagine their character doing with the tactical options within the system...

I made an overly long post about it on the last page, but I still maintain that conceptual complexity is strongly connected to mode of play. Traditional RPGs do have a lot of conceptual complexity, but at it's core combining "Let's pretend" with "Playing a game with rules based on what we're...

I agree with Henry. The idea that a roleplaying game should simluate a world in complete detail is just a preference, not the only way to play. It's certainly the most espoused method of GMing, but there are other ways to do it. Some people want as much detail as Tolkein. Me, I'm happy do it...

So "optimize" and "powergame" are differentiated by intent? I see some truth in that. It seems like a social contract issue, where power gamers are considered such if they either stretch optimization past the group's comfort level, or are disruptive at the table. The power gamer thinks the...

Those are very interesting points. And I think that most games out there now are really lacking in explanations that actually help someone who wants to pick up a book and learn how to play (much less run) a game without someone who's done it before around to help them figure it out. A lot of...

Now that's what I call rules-light. :)

So it looks like the people who wouldn't want godless clerics feel that way for two major reasons: - Deities have "balanced" combinations of domains and alignment, and being able to pick them freely could lead to a too powerful combination, or - The game world has deities tied closely to the...

Well, the system rewards this behavior. Many possible builds exist for characters, and some are much more powerful than others. It takes a fairly strong social contract and up-front communication to make the game be about something other than defeating challenges and gaining power. Some people...

It's a player issue, not a character issue. It doesn't sound like you made having the party be a cohesive whole a priority in creating characters or the first session. I'd consider backing up a bit and asking the players if they're okay with everybody doing a retcon and coming up with reasons...

JohnSnow, would you mind taking a second to tell us what kinds of roleplaying games you enjoy and what you've played but disliked? I'm finding that's helping a lot in understanding where people are coming from. If it turns out we're talking about totally different things when it comes to...

I have heard that last line referenced a lot on this forum, and I swear it's a definition of "story" I was not previously aware of. Whe're using "story" (or "the game" for that matter) as shorthand for "The shared creative input of players at the table." Shared is the operative word there...

Boom. Bam. I agree totally. Especially when you compare them to a product that you know can continue selling supplements for years. Focusing on the existing market is a guaranteed way to make bank; there's no incentive to look at other concepts. My frustration in the thread has been that I...

Okay. I get it. You're talking about traditional roleplaying games, and I'm not. I've got Primetime Adventures in my hand. It's a 75 page, paperback-sized booklet. Character creation is 8 pages with examples. The mechanics take up 23 pages, of which only 10 need to be read by someone other...

So are the ground rules of the conversation that we're talking about RPGs that sell in large numbers? Basically, "stuff like D&D"? Is the purpose of the roleplaying hobby to provide a market for regular supplements? Are those people out there who play out of print RPGs not relevant either...

Right. Which is why it's clear that you and your group have found a system that works great for your style of play. But I think you've been assuming that groups who use and enjoy rules-light games play anything like your group does. Often we don't. I think people would have responded...

I find it pretty amusing that the question about who else handles beliefs within the system was in response to the argument that somebody thought the game was very '80s style, and the systems people rattled off are all about as old as Burning Wheel. :) Patryn, I hear what you're saying, and the...

Man, buzz, I'm trying to see where you're coming from. (I'm pretty sure it's the same place as RyanD, not that I think you're just echoing him, but because you both seem to have the same perspective.) I've taught people to play roleplaying games, recently. We used systems where characters had...

People typically get more satisfaction and catharsis about complaining about a problem than in fixing it. Fixing it's hard; complaining is easy.

For the record, fusangite, I agree with your assessment, and I did even back when I was posting ideas on how to deal with it in game. I'm really glad that, even though people are on one side or the other in how to deal with the issue, nobody is advocating that the original poster keep on with...