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Good luck with that!

Yes, definitely. I think it is even worse from the player perspective, at least to me.

Yep, this is what I do as well. I like degree of success. However, it is not needed for everything and some things can be simple pass/fail. I like a system that can easily handle both.

"I search the parlour for footprints and other clues. My intent is to find proof that Lord Calverton was here at the night of the murder." "I carefully examine the document that proved that Miss Weller was guilty. My intent is to find it to be a forgery." Etc. Valid?

So these are good principles and this is how I run my game. And you're correct, that for "real solving" we've been talking about, fairness and integrity are important. Realism really isn't. But I don't think anyone on the "real mystery" side has been talking about realism. Only @pemerton keeps...

So I do not mean that this would be best way to play 4e, but that it would be a game that would work well if played this way. I am not trying to claim it didn't have fiction. But the rules are very self contained in a way that requires less adjudication vis-à-vis fiction than many other games...

Or perhaps the resolution relies on phrenology? Your a bit in straw grasping territory here. Most key clues are not like that. They are about material proof, alibis, motivations and capability. Furthermore, realism is not a requirement. That is not what "real" refers to here. It merely requires...

I think one could play pawn stance dungeon delving basically as board game and I think people do that. 4e D&D was particularly suitable for this as its rules were so self contained. I don't play like this and I never have, but it definitely is a thing.

So you think it is annoying that people have hyper specific semantic quibbles! :rolleyes: :ROFLMAO:

So what you say about possible complications and how the GM using force to avoid them damages the integrity of the solve is of course true. But I think your conjecture about failure rates etc is just pulled out of thin air. If the Holmes boardgame has 40% failure rate then like you said the game...

So my experiences regarding success rate have been more positive than yours, but yeah, with a real mystery it is perfectly possible outcome that the characters fail to solve that. If one doesn't want such possibility, then one should not run a game that way. My solution to this in my D&D game...

Right. But then why have species as a mechanical splat at all? Why not just have a pool of traits to choose from? Or do you agree with me that if we accept the PC exceptionality axiom, this would be more logical way to do it?

Then again, the fiction is a big part of appeal of the game. That it evokes the imagery of a classic murder mystery is not trivial to the actual play experience, and if that was absent none of us would be discussing this game as it would have not survived past its first print run if it even made...

Players declaring actions that reveal clues, and making deductions based on those clues.

By current setting Artra takes inspiration from prehistoric times, there is a lot of megafauna and people living in simple tribal hunter-gatherer societies. There are also more developed areas, which take inspiration form the dawn of civilisation, ancient Egypt, Minoans, Sumer etc. However...

Yes, this. And I see that a lot of people on both sides of the discussion have liked this post. So do we have common ground? This is what is meant, regardless of the exact words used to describe it, and there is a marked difference? Agreed? Debate over?

Mainly the process used for learning that information.

I see zero appeal in outsourcing the character's reactions to the dice this way. It is completely antithetical to what I want from roleplaying games. But this is just a personal preference, obviously it works for you.

Ok, but certainly the same logic applies to all the species traits then? Like if I want to have halfling that was raised in Underdark and has adapted to have dark vision, why cannot I have that? If every PC is an unique exceptional individual that doesn't need to conform what is normally...