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Figuring out what CR distribution to use is really hard to standardize, since that part will vary greatly from table to table. But I just did a quick back-of-the-envelope scan, and if at level 8 you assume that 50% of enemies are CR4 (half the party's level) 25% are CR8 (equal to the party's...

If you assume variant human Champion with GWM feat and defense style with a base 65% to hit (becoming 40% after the -5), they do about 19.8 DPR on average (roughly a 10% chance of a crit and thus a bonus action attack; ignoring additional chances of a bonus action attack due to getting a kill)...

He wasn't incorporating the GWM feat; just doing a damage-on-hits analysis assuming the two characters have the same accuracy.

It has no paths to extreme optimization, but that isn't even relevant. The point is that it also has no paths to even reaching the level of an "average power" character of another class. Miscommunication is a two-way street, so I'm not going to put misunderstanding what I was trying to say on...

Why is it 6 only 6 rounds in a 4 round fight? Is that because you're assuming there are two other enemies that come in and use actions to shake the three enemies out of it? It's quite possible IME that hypnotic pattern with three targets failing the save is 12 rounds of incapacitation. I think...

Who has said that that was a bad thing? Certainly not me. It doesn't really have to last the whole hour, since they can cast it about once per encounter if needed. But if that's the sticking point, feel free to recalculate the baseline assuming the warlock takes war caster. Of course they...

In my experience rangers are at their best when they focus on archery, but sure, melee rangers exist. Generally, melee rangers get less out of hunter's mark than ranged rangers do. Melee rangers are probably better off concentrating on something like Zephyr strike. But anyway, this part of the...

I think that's exactly right. Yep, I think that's the most reasonable way to look at it. Seems reasonable. I'm not sure if converting damage-prevented to damage inflicted is necessarily the best way to go about it... I think it may be cleaner to go in the other direction, and convert DPR...

Now we're getting somewhere!

As I've said many times, there are all kinds of metrics one can use. Criticizing the metric being used doesn't lead to 'math is irrelevant in this discussion'.

No, nobody dismisses the "team buff" aspect of Stunning Strike. It very much should be part of the analysis. And it is something which is possible to quantify, if you make some reasonable assumptions about what other PCs will typically do. First level concentration spells are basically...

I can't help you if you want to say that math isn't an important part of having a debate about whether X < Y.

Yes, so does everyone else. But most other classes are not as dependent on their bonus action as the monk is, and the classes that natively get Hex/Hunter's Mark are usually ranged attackers, so are less susceptible to getting hit multiple times, so are more likely to be able to maintain...

Basically, what I'm saying is, put down your goalposts, and commit to not moving them.

As I told Flamestrike, that's fine, if you're countering with better assumptions and doing your own analysis. But nobody defending monks (other than Frogreaver) is doing that.

That's fine --- measure something else then. How about enemy turns denied per day, with some standard assumptions about number and lengths of fights? The important thing is to attempt some sort of objective comparison, otherwise we're just letting out hot air.

It's a bad look if the argument is, "Look, I don't care about your data --- I have my gut feelings!" If you want to have any hope of having an objective comparison, you need to start with a common reference point, and that means using some kind of quantitative analysis. Otherwise the...

I think the discussion about "getting enough short rests" is a distraction. It's true that monks suck more if there aren't enough short rests, but I, and I think Treantmonk too, and most of the other monk critics, grant a standard number of rests when we do our analyses. You can even give the...

It's likely to be about every other round or so, in my experience, assuming a competent party that focuses fire. But I do agree that it's a useful addition. Using the bonus action for that in round 1 means you fall behind flurry-of-blows damage for that round, which is a little rough because the...

I guess you posted this one while I was writing up the other match, but sure, let's try this too. I'll go Vuman (Dex/Con) Battlemaster, Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter. Fighting Style: Archery Maneuvers: Precision Attack, Menacing Attack, Trip Attack Equipment: Half Plate, Hand Crossbow (+8 to...