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Realistically, a big difference between every class is flavor. It is far deeper than flavor or spell selection that separates those classes. The Wizard is a Vancian system, the Sorcerer is a spell known system. Those are the two closest and they still play radically different. The Warlock is a...

I agree that the idea of a Mage meta-class for other spellcasting systems isn't necessarily a bad idea. The problem is the are trying to use all these other existing and well liked classes as the alternate spellcasting systems and that is really stomping on the toes of the players who play those...

Instead of just debating the issue, I think a poll will help judge how people feel.

It would seem ludicrous that he wouldn't take a survey on this design concept after asking us about everything else. If they want to group multiple spellcasting systems under the Mage, they need to do it without screwing with these other classes.

They are as much options as the Gladiator is an option for the Fighter. The Warlock won't have access to the Wizardry Schools, so those particular 'options' aren't options for the whole Mage class, just the Wizard subclass.

If they want to keep the Mage as a modular class as it is, they need to rethink what they want the group under it. I could see things that are very similar like Dragonlance's High Sorcery, Dark Sun's Preserver and Defiler, and Birthright's Magician class. There are even other things that could...

The problem is that thematically, everyone can be grouped under Adventurer. Thematically a Wizard is someone that studies magic like a science, while a Sorcerer is someone that has it running in his veins. A Warlock found a way to make a pact with some higher being, but doesn't necessarily know...

No... I don't think it is okay. The Warlock, Sorcerer, Psion, Wizard, and Artificer are all fundamentally different classes that fill completely different archetypes and use completely different spell mechanics.

A fighter, ranger, paladin, rogue, cleric, and even a druid can stab things with a sword. That doesn't mean they should all be under the same class. Every class shares similarities. If you take it back far enough you could have one class.

Class is not interchangeable with role. I've seen clerics made that have been completely centered around using his spells to buff his melee skills. Just as I've played a dual wielding fighter that was completely centered around getting weapon specialization, weapon mastery, etc to output as much...

I never once said subclasses are bad. Not freaking once. I don't have a long thread complaining that the Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, all have an array of subclasses. I do have a thread about the fact that the Mage not only has subclasses, but sub-subclasses. All thematically...

No, the fighter wasn't. We barely even had positions throughout 1e and 2e. We didn't use a battlegrid. There was no way for him to stay in front to shield anyone. Enemies aren't mobs from an MMO where they stupidly attack someone shouting taunts at them while they get blasted by a caster. The...

Roles are not essential to the core of D&D at all. These 'roles' didn't exist until 4e.

I never once said subclasses weren't D&D. What you did was pick up on my reply to someone that was talking about grouping classes based on roles. That isn't D&D. I have been trying to ignore your harping on it because I have been trying to avoid an outright edition war in my thread.

A system meaning an entire mechanical system. Psions are going to have a power point system, Sorcerers a spell known system, the Artificer is going to have an artifice system, and the warlock is going to have some sort of at-will system. This is known by anyone who has watched the GenCon...

Telling you that you have no clue what you are talking about when you clearly do not is not insulting you. It is stating a fact. Now I can't tell if you are just being obtuse or trolling.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. 'Wizardry' under the Mage is what holds all of the Wizard's spellcasting system, including the Wizard's school subclasses. Wizardry will be replaced with 'Sorcery', 'Witchcraft', etc and each of those will have their own sub-classes.

The Wizard gets schools, the Sorcerer gets bloodlines, and the Warlock gets pacts. No, that is not what is happening. Each individual sub-class is getting a completely different spellcasting system. The Mage class shares the hit points, attack, Esoteric Knowledge, Scribe Scrolls, Brew Potions...

If you are failing after reading my OP, that is your problem.

Duh? See? You are being obtuse. If you read my post, you would know my main concern is the fact that five sub-classes with each having a number of additional sub-classes under them, all under a single class, will be bloated and complicated. The fact that a lot of these classes do not...