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then I am not sure why you brought it up as if the DM not being able to do so were a bad thing

ok, but what is the likelihood of that happening… they can still do that even if the DM introduced the lair, the assumption simply was that they would not because they know they stand no chance

if the GM exercises it without consideration of the players, yes making these decisions was a choice

do you think the players are significantly better at this?

not sure there is one answer everyone agrees on, you seem to say that even 100 aren’t as long it is the DM that brings them up. Is that correct?

as opposed to the players only seeking out a dragon lair and then finding it once they have leveled up enough when the players control the fiction? That does not appear to be a big difference…

given that you do not get anywhere close to the required XP to level up and they all use milestones leveling instead , I doubt that

Goodman does not get the IP for free, either they are licensing it and JG gets a percentage or Goodman bought the rights outright in which case JG still got something for it. I don’t see a scenario in which JG got nothing

I would agree, the only question is what qualifies as a heuristic. Is the DM following their model of what they consider to be realistic and probable in the world a heuristic, or does it take a set of rules in a book for that?

the option to call for a Steel test

from my perspective they are arguing over whether the degree is meaningful and whether the approach works for them at all I haven’t seen anyone argue that players contributing to the fiction directly is giving them less control (or even equal control)

the town and the guards potentially (*) are still there, even if the party would never go to that location, but since the party is not going there, why would the DM describe this in the game? *depends on the DM and how fleshed out the world already is / whether that location was previously...

yes, we are talking degrees, and since meaningful is a matter of taste, the degrees required for someone also are a matter of taste. For you it is presumably not meaningful, at least I would be very surprised if it were given everything you posted in this thread. For others it is. I don’t...

if the rule gives the GM the option to do that at basically any time (the starting point of ‘say yes or roll the dice’, ie every time the player asks something of declares an action, very much sounds like that to me) then it is pretty arbitrary, rule or no rule.

but what that filter is letting through is influenced by the characters actions (or potentially even the players). If the party goes north, something else filters through than if they go south. If they engage with some random NPC, that NPC comes into focus while the other 50 going about their...

there is a lot of authority, I don’t think anyone is disputing that. The dispute is about whether it allows for meaningful input / control by the players or not. A DM can absolutely railroad a game that way, but that is a choice, not the logical consequence

how is the DM asking ‘where do you want to go next’ / ‘what do you want to do next’ the DM initiating? Let’s assume the DM brought up 10 rumors and the players pick among those rather than deciding on their own based on what happened so far. You consider these 10 options to be the players...

apart from the player initiating what they want to do, I see no difference to the tasks @pemerton described here and rejected

the DM is reacting to player input, it is a loop because each ‘side’ influences the other. If the DM reacted to DM narration, they would be telling a story to an audience

generally speaking, yes, maybe 1-4, 5-7, 8-10, 11-12 no point going beyond that