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The difference being that in D&D it is not possible to build a character who relies on using the legendary sword of valor, because the legendary sword of valor might not be the loot that the player finds, and heck they might find it, but what if they find a better sword? Casters get to pick how...

I think D&D has gotten players used to a weird kind of thinking about how to interact with the world. You're either interacting through skills or through spells (or class abilities). Skills are the least influential, they're 100% "mundane" and they're weak. Then you have spells which are the...

This seems unnecessarily punishing to non-casters, since the primary resource burned by a melee martial is HP, while the primary resource burned by a spell caster is magic.

As a sidenote this really does sound like something from the Nobilis rpg. It's a bit hard to use in d&d though I think. It would benefit from a lighted system with more leeway for weird rule interpretations.

I mean purely non-magical as in no spells and nada magic, but that isn't really a requirement, personally. I'd be fine with it as long as they're not spells, but to me it also does not need to involve magic whatsoever. I personally don't care. I'm talking about things like a fighter so good at...

I'm having a difficult time replying to these because of the split quotes. In my opinion it is essential that martials are also competent. My problem is with the way this is currently handled (they're not) and also that a lot of people seem to want martials to suck. I suspect we are talking...

It becomes very difficult to reply if you don't cite the entire post or leave things out and cut the quotes apart too much. I never said he can't have fun. What you need is to make sure that the system isn't as over the top with magic as it currently is. The quantity of magic and the power of...

Personally, I'd prefer if we didn't care about the second player at all. Because I want to be able to play awesome martials who don't use magic but who are still competent and influential.

Yes I would normally agree, but the second player seems intent on wanting to play someone who can't actually do anything much.

You can nerf magic heavily, like how it works in most other systems, and you could have something workable to fit both players in. Another option is to play low level only, which would also fit both players in. The key understanding is that the character the second player wants to play is...

No they're player characters. They're heroic.

Why? They're not player characters. What's the point?

How is it not relevant? What the player characters can do has nothing to do with what non player characters can do. It's like arguing that if martial characters can lift things too heavy for a normal human to be able to lift, any random farmer should be able to reach that potential. (yes I've...

Why would it need to be any character? It's not any character. It's a player character.

You mean because of the flat modifiers? Because I can't think of anything else about the skill system that lets them outshine anything.

True, but this is one of the few rpg related things I've seen debated online that is also discussed irl. At least where I am.

It's fairly obvious it needs more balance given the frequency of these threads.

Nah you need a holistic approach to this. You can't just pick an arbitrary quality that some edition had and say that it was because of this quality that this edition was not popular / was popular. (also 4E is clearly better designed than 5E just saying, flame war ahead etc. etc let's go)

No. It's more difficult to make plans (be creative) when you have no tools. Casters have more tools, hence they can be more creative. This is like the strange argument that balance doesn't matter because you don't have to pick a bad class. Bad classes shouldn't exist; all classes should be good.

The reason why these discussions become so incredibly frustrating is because some people see a problem that other people argue don't exist, and heck we've seen the exact same thing play out even back in 3.0 and 3.5 with the same kind of arguments by, quite possibly, the same people debating...