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As is a guy who wants to be weaker than the other players.

What we lose: Resources. More resources are required to keep the weak character alive. Success probability. Clearly a more powerful character is likely to lead to sucess for the group than a weak one. Rewards. I contribute more to the success of the group, yet the expectation is that those...

Actually, you didn't. You highlighted "Every player", when what I actually said was "Every player but one". Pretty poor form there. And, yes. When 1 player goes against the desires of the group on a consistent basis, he is the problem, not the group. Doesn't matter if the 1 guy is "weakness...

Funny. Pretty much every group I've ever played in would have said "Why are you playing a deliberately gimp character in OUR group?". Who's the jerk there? I remember my second D&D group. Every player but one wanted to play what amounted to professional dungeon looting butt-kickers. That...

IME, even back in the roll for attributes days, it was expected your highest score would be in the attribute most important to your class. Nobody in this thread is saying that every character should have an 18. Frankly, for some builds it's not even optimal. What they are saying is that your...

Right, as long as the default playstyle of D&D is a major part of your game, you should probably continue using it. No other game does it better. The people that view combat and dungeon delving as something to be avoided though, should probably be playing something else. And it's pretty...

I'll give you that before other good rpgs existed, D&D was obviously the best choice for non adventuring games, simply because there weren't any other options. It's pretty safe to say D&D hasn't been the best choice for at least 15 or 20 years though. Though I didn't say D&D couldn't be the...

I've seen it happen too. It's just typically more fun when it happens in a more appropriate game than D&D. If you are not looting dungeons and fighting dragons, D&D isn't the game that best serves your needs. Never has been, and never will be.

Yeah, it can be a touchy subject. Sometimes powergamers can be rude and/or pushy when bringing it up. On the other hand, some players tend to put "mechanics" and "role playing" on opposite ends of an axis, and unjustifiably flip out and start screaming "ROLLPLAY!" if you suggest a way for...

The disconnect some people are having about why a 16 is typically considered good but this 14 int is considered to be pretty bad by optimizers is because of the nature of the Int attribute(as well as the Dex attribute) in 4e. Int(and Dex) is so good that if you attack with it, you should...

Yeah, at this point I only buy a couple books per year. Buying the books doesn't really feel necessary anymore, but A) having actual books is fun, and B) buying books gives consumers more influence over the content WotC puts out. Obviously if a book sells well, they'll consider making more...

These players are equally problematic. How problematic each side of the coin is depends on the group in question. Most groups I've played in have considered the "weak characters are the height of rp" guys to be the problem. However, that's biased as I don't play in a group for long when they...

Don't tell him his character sucks. He'll(quite justifiably) take that personally. If anything, discuss the build not the character. That way you are talking about the mechanics, and not his rp, background, etc. Additionally, don't say it sucks. Point out the specific problems he'll have...

Yeah, I don't see the need for a DM to buy up all the player crunch. Let the players do that. Borrow it if you feel like you have to read it to run those characters. 4th edition stuff tends to be pretty well balanced overall, so going over everything with a fine toothed comb isn't necessary...

I believe that this is intentional design to prevent the ressurection of CoDzilla.

This is also true. While I think most groups want skilled, competent characters, having a character blatantly more powerful than the rest is never fun. My advice is that if you are in a group that wants to be effectve but aren't the optimizers you are is to either give the rest of the group...

That is true. However, the "DM decides" mindset is COMPLETELY innappropriate when it comes to group composition. This is a player issue, not a DM issue. The DM shouldn't have any more voice in this than any other player. It should come down to group consensus/a vote of some sort, rather than...

You are trying to create a false dichotomy there. Just because somebody embraces the mechanical aspects of the game doesn't mean they aren't also roleplaying. I play D&D as a game where we pillage dungeons and fight dragons. This is the intended playstyle, I would imagine. Tell me how it...

Right,this is one of the big reasons there's a social obligation about this. Additionally, they deplete the group's resources faster. They also increase risk. They also make combat drag on longer(which is ironic, given the player type that tends to play these characters). Also, their...

In 3rd edition, I'd agree with this sentiment. In 4th edition though, alot of the focus shifted from character optimization to tactical play skill. Besides, there's a difference between "not building a character the right way" and "deliberately building a character the wrong way". The problem...