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The full text of the original use. The last sentence is forestalling the fallacy I could see coming a mile away. If you had no plans to use it, it didn't apply to you - so why protest so much?

I'd imagine restricted lists would be restricted for everyone, regardless of class - at least, that's how I would do it.

No, I didn't. I mentioned it to forestall its use. You know what it is, so you should know well that you hadn't used it but that it was the next lever to reach for. If I was going to call you out on making a fallacy, I'd have flat out said it. That is fallacious, and thus a bad argument. I did...

Popularity is irrelevant when discussing power. Please scroll up and read the original text. The champion is both bland and not that great at damage. Arguing that it is not bland is one of those aesthetic arguments that is going to be rather easy to win and arguing that it is not bad at damage...

I was using it correctly before - ad populum is the only argument one can really make in favor of the champion and I wanted it off the table. I don't see how you can argue that it is good without making an ad populum argument or claiming that class and subclass balance is irrelevant. I think...

Those would have been marked improvements. I'd have given it free proficiency in athletics or acrobatics, too, and it would still be a bland archetype and relatively weak on the power spectrum.

This is just more ad populum - people play it so it must be good. People play sorcerers, so they must be just as flexible as wizards. People play fighters, so they must be just as poweful and flexible as casters. Etcetera. It very strictly isn't an argument about how they are powerful. It is...

This is pretty much ad populum. Lots of people play it, so it must be good. It is the most simple sublcass, and, as I said - there is nothing wrong with that. However, the most simple subclass should be a bit better at The Thing it does. This is not the case. Whether or not the people that...

No, it isn't. it has been demonstrated countless times. Are you claiming, here, that the champion is not among the poorest damage dealers among fighter archetypes? Or that it is not among the weakest if not the weakest fighter archetypes for out of combat options? You have made no argument at...

It is at once bland and bad at damage and not terribly useful (in terms of subclass features) out of combat. As a subclass it gives little in the way of roleplaying hooks, particularly few outside of combat, and is also not even that great at combat. But it's "okay" because 5e isn't hard. By...

When battle master maneuvers open portals to other planes of existence, this might not be a laughable comparison.

The champion is about as flavorful a subclass as a fifty cent packet of ramen without the dust. It has weak to no flavor and isn't even particularly good at what it is packaged as being (low maintenance damage output). It could be better at that and still be just as low maintenance, but it is...

The DM isn't saying that - they are saying magic is restricted in this world. A player that then makes a wizard did so fully informed.

Unless you're playing next to a barbarian that has figured out rage, reckless attack, and great weapon master. Then, no, it isn't all that great; because it gets absolutely trounced at the thing it is supposed to be good at by what is a pretty simple thing to put together and play. Reckless...

I'd argue the opposite - I don't think spells are required to do things, but rather that because spells exist to do things players (and DMs) assume that is the only way to do them. Yep, and in a world where a spell can get you to plane shift, it is completely natural for players (and their...

It would be nice if the subclass was actually better at that than it is.

The players aren't forced to play a wizard, are they?

I'd say this is because the spell already exists, and the sorts of things skill checks can uncover are left deliberately vague. (See also: Horizon Walker). Of course, even if Arcana did the job, going off point buy and the stat that governs Arcana, a fighter might not be making that check even...

That, and it is much harder to do without a system overhaul. That same pinch of bat guano can make an 8d6 or 14d6 fireball, after all, it's all about how much arcane power the use puts into it, and that's not something easy to regulate in-system.

Ah, then that opens up some interesting things where racial spells (for races not present in the culture that is the start point) having regular access to spells thought lost to time. I'd start drafting lists and keep them short - is there magic above 4th or 5th level in the culture? If there...