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Sure. And I've explained my reasoning. I've shown how agency works for players in other games, and then applied that same reasoning for RPGs. When viewed that way, it's pretty easy to see. It's only when we either reject the idea that RPGs are games, or that they cannot be looked at as games...

I mean, I don't know if we can break it all down to such specific instances like that... but assuming we could, sure, this may be the case. I'm not declaring "absolute truth", I'm declaring what I believe is true and why... which is based on the actual definition of agency.

Take it easy, sport. People can hide rolls if they want to because of some minor crossing of the character/player barrier that a roll with no obvious result provides. I was just offering a way to reconcile that with an in-fiction reason. No, it's not me telling the player what they think. It...

No, I didn't "give" them any information. The example was a failed roll making the player think something more is going on. I said "go ahead and let them think that... call it a hunch".

The example that started this avenue of discussion was about a failed roll to notice a secret door. I'm not saying to tell the players who the culprit of a mystery is. I'm saying that being cautious about such trivial meta-information is just a waste of time.

But isn't the player of BW doing the same thing? They've chosen to have certain traits called into question. Am I brave enough to face my fear? Am I hard enough to kill someone? That kind of thing. If that's what play is meant to be about, and the player knows that the answer can be yes or...

I can see how it may not be to their preference, but I don't really see how it affects their agency. Like, if they have some meta clue... a failed roll with no result that seems like they didn't notice something... they don't have to act on it. If they How so? I'm not following you here. Who...

Who cares if they act on the meta-information? It's just information that's available to them. Let it be a hunch that the character has. Also, if they fail a roll to find a secret door, who cares if they know it... they failed. They're not finding the secret door. Assuming you don't allow...

Is it that surprising that if people suspect they have incomplete information with a topic, that they'd approach it differently? I mean out in the world... let's not take posts on ENW into account on this! I think secret rolls are antagonistic to player agency. I understand your reason for...

You're right! Rather it speaks to my confidence that @Lanefan can come up with a 6 to 10 word description of an NPC on short notice! I believe in him!

Well, I would expect that you could have just as easily come up with 6 to 10 words on the spot! There's nothing wrong with having done all that ahead of time... but it's not necessary, and you'd have been just fine if you hadn't.

So I'll start by saying that I think it is essential to view RPGs as games. They have a structure. Knowing that structure is key to players being able to effectively navigate play. Aside from that, I think your point about the division you've made in agency would apply if a game only offered...

I wanted to get back to this post because I thought it was an interesting way to look at things. I don't see anything restricting this in a living world sandbox. NPCs, their backstories, and ambitions are the domain of the GM, so they can create what they'd like in that regard. What I would...

I'm not operating on the definition of agency within the context of tabletop roleplaying. I'm using the definition of a player and the definition of agency and looking at how any game allows agency. I'm not treating TTRPGs any differently than I would other games. The division as you make it...

Why is my opinion problematic?

But what is meta agency? As far as I can tell, it’s something that’s been introduced just for this discussion. What is player agency for soccer/football? What then is the meta agency for soccer/football?

But how’s that different than “GM decides”? Yes, you consider many factors… but then, you decide. I don’t see a huge difference here. And it’s not about trust… if I was a player in your game, I’d believe you’re doing what you’re saying. But I don’t think it’s all that different from GM fiat...

If we’re at an impasse, then what are you replying for? As I said earlier, your replies feel like requests for elaboration. You’re asking questions of me, or making casual accusations about my “agenda” or that I’m using “word play” or “linguistic tricks”. I’ve said several times it’s a...

Where did I tell anyone they must conform? Why are you not asking anyone else why they’re trying to get me to conform?

I mean, I'm operating with the definition of agency, and how it applies to playing games. As I said, that's as neutrally as I can manage. Whereas you are dividing agency into two categories... character agency and meta agency. Which seems far more agenda driven than my take.