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What skills are those, I wonder? (...'Cause surely it varies by group and DM.) In the games I play or run, the critical skills (used in more than just a skill challenge) are:Diplomacy Heal Insight Perception Stealth Thievery ...and of those, Perception easily tops the...

That was my impression too. Currently, I'm playing a human BRV fighter. I created the character before MP as a sword-n-board WT fighter, then swapped Weapon Talent for BRV when Martial Powers came out. As built, my PC doesn't out-shine the other PC in the party. I'm actually pretty careful...

As has been pointed out, the turn-over levels for each tier are poor, poor, poor examples for build-testing. Very poor. If you do the math across all levels, there's a "saw-tooth" pattern with attacks, defences, etc....with levels 1, 11, and 21 being at the top of each of the saw teeth. Far...

As an aside: "Have the designers ever specificly said where they think the FUN hit-miss ratio is?" I thought I had read 50/50.....Maybe "Races & Classes"? Dunno.....(EDIT: Skimmed through it, and...nope.)

The rules give the DM plenty of latitude ("Some magic items might be a bit harder to identify,...") in identifying the properties of magic items, but the rules do not require that a PC uses the Arcana skill before she may identify the properties of said magic item.

Again, it's not my thread, and it's not my addendum. It's a paraphrase of the OP's original concern:

By RAW, do you need to detect whether the item is magical before you can determine its magical properties?

FWIW, I play in two groups, and only one has a rogue. I DM a third group...but we use the KotS pre-gens, so of course there's a rogue. ;)

So.... This thread started with the question "Are parties screwed without an Int-based PC (to find magic items)?" It seems pretty clear the answer can be whatever to DM likes, but....by the Rules As Written, the answer to the questin is: "Nope. They can find magic items just fine."

That took me a lot longer to accept. :-S At first the Indimidate schtick looked like nothing but cheese. "Use a skill as a auto-win power? Are you nuts?" ....But upon further review (and at higher level, as you point out), it's not so bad. In fact, (Shhhh! Don't let my DM see this!) ;)

I'm just reading what it says in the PH. That system for identifying magic items is no more mine than yours. As you said initially, we're just doing a strict RAW interpretation here, nothing more. FWIW, the PH1 also says that the DM may make identifying magic items more difficult if they...

You might be stumbling over the idea of "more". A PC, regardless of proficient skills, can identify the properties of one magic item during a short rest. A PC, trained in Arcana, can identify the properties of one magic item during a short rest...and can do much more than that if he or she...

Can you determine the properties of a magic item if you handle it? If the item has no magical properties, is it a magic item? If the first item is not a magic item, and you put it down and pick up another item that is a magic item, can you identify its properties?

Sure! (That many encounters takes us a month playing RL, but that's another matter....) It's used every encounter. Every. Encounter. It rocks. I can't tell you how often I've been able to set up sneak attacks or free hurt friendlies with it. Very true. This happens near the end, if at all...

Really? #1) How do you determine "what the item is and what it does"? #2) If an item is not magical, can you determine what the item is and what it does? #3) Is there a limit to how many non-magical items you can identify in this manner? :D

FWIW, my genesai Warlord 4 has SEVEN Encounter Powers:Earthshock (racial) Scorching Burst (multi-wiz) Second Wind (duh) Inspiring Word....twice! :) Warlord's Favor (attack 1) Knight's Move (utility 2) Follow Me In (attack 3) Not to mention the action point (once per 2 encounters). Then add in...

You attack 47 enemies in one encounter? Wow; you're one tough cookie. ;) Only magical items have magical properties, so you go through the items trying to identify properties until you find an item that qualifies. After you've found one, then the next party memebr can do the same to the rest...

Whoa, whoa, whoa! #1) The "Intimidate cheese" was one of the first system holes my friends and I discovered when introduced to 4e! If you've got the score and your opponent is bloodied, there's little reason not to use it. Instant win! the first party I ran through KotS intimidated...

Nope. As you said: Where does it say you need to know first?

Finding an item (magic or not) is Perception. Sensing magic items at a distance is Arcana. You seemed to be confusing the two. Is everything okay now? ;)