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There's a thread on r/pathfinder2e coming here too, funnily enough, and it wasn't me everyone wave.

Yesn't, in the sense that you're broadly right, but they can still want it in specific places-- they might want a character arc designed around their backstory and a set of plot beats, but still want combat as sport as opposed to combat as spectacle. They may want combat as spectacle so that...

This is really a wider problem in the space, where the feedback patterns of players and their relationship with their GM are beginning to echo consumer ones, which are much more demanding, even at unpaid tables. I suspect it has more to do with changing social scripts out in the wild, and how...

More softly, it also throws off the alchemy for some players-- they feel like they didn't explore if they're participating in it being generated, they want it to be part of a vision so that someone's curating it, and they want to push their problem solving ability to the fringe without concern...

One consideration is that largely, what we consider the GM, and the power afforded to the GM, has the most to do with the responsibility placed on the GM's shoulders. If players accept that a GM is responsible for following the rules, then a set of powers enabling them to bend, break, and...

I think there's kind of a conflict built into the community on this: Is it more OC to have a lot of setting widgets that players can dive into and then use to identify with and express themselves through a character that employs those widgets, or as few widgets as possible so the players can...

Honestly Nethys is so good it makes me almost wish physical books weren't a thing so the designers could patch in errata easier and faster. I'd also love adventures presented as wikis, so they read object oriented rather than sequential.

I think in practice, since GMs are unlikely to feel that way about every element of the world (that it must be interacted with only in some specific way, and the ones that do are probably problem-GMs of a certain type you see in places like the horror stories subreddit) its an exercise of give...

I don't disagree in that framing, but I'd almost suggest Neotrad feels like a more apropo term for something like Critical Role play, where Trad culture is still heavily comorbid with the OC, as opposed to a game where everything is either individual character background centric or...

True, a similar but more canonical example might be the emotions of a GM who develops great affection for a worldbuilding element, and is going for a certain vibe with that, who might need to negotiate their player's differing expectations to preserve the relative sanctity of what they...

Yes, consider Microscope, if you imbue the enthusiasm into say, a set of institutions and want to make sure they aren't 'ruined' by being taken in unlikeable directions, so you encourage the other participants to avoid doing certain things with their game-given authority to mess with it, that's...

I'm not sure its distinctly OC (as culture) the emphasis is more that it can be, that different timings for character conceptualization aren't determinative of the presence of OC play. The distinction between the two prelusory stages was to illustrate OCs compatibility with the timings, I think...

"the difference between having a concept and needing to pick a system that lets you do that," but lmao yes, that is what it could simplify to.

Yes, with the additional possibility that the game might also succeed if the positive space happens to already be ideal for the emulation of that concept, that's just difficult because frequently a concept and set of activities that concept engages in will be nuanced enough to be hard to target...

Most of the rest of what you said is in this interpersonal dispute where people are being accused of coming after you, or you're patting yourself on the back for experience, or trying to litigate what response is ok to give you, but to actually discuss this which is the real meat of this post...

Whats with the aggrievement regarding other people not agreeing with the stance you want to take? Is it really so intolerable that 'most games are only fun because of improv rp so they miss their own point' isn't something you're agreed with on? Or that other people feel you're engaged in an...

So to be clear, I did understand your connotation, I am asserting that the G elements themselves were likely fun for people with different tastes than you, in the same way that Fighting Video Games get a lot of heat for being clunky or unfun but have a devoted following that enjoys them, and...

I think the problem here (putting aside that Kenada is easily one of the most open-minded people on the forum in the first place because there isn't much point in getting personal) is that interpreting roleplaying as an act of improv in the way that you're discussing gives it certain baggage...

Yeah to be clear, there's a subjectivity there that I think naturally divides playerbases, and I don't think it's escapable-- its why I have a player who definetly likes PF2e enough to not mind playing it (and they're excited for Starfinder 2e), but then did simultaneously enjoy the freeform...

I do this sometimes, except I actually just set up an adversary roster instead of a wandering monster table, and inline the monster distribution to my improv as well. I spend more time on the concepts and ideas in my prep, so a lot of it is actually just brainstorming so cool ideas and...