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Your original post was great and no arguments. I just wanted to comment here a bit off topic. I've often wondered if the alignment letters could be expanded just a bit to enhance NPC knowledge. LG-INTJ. make sense. (That is Meyers Briggs). Or something else like it. I'm not prescribing the...

This reference to real religion is getting ridiculous. Being ordained is not the same as receiving your daily allotment of spell power. A cleric is likely not out of the faith for failing to receive spells that day. So let's drop this whole line of ridiculous argument. And if you want...

Good for you. And I mean it. But that doesn't mean I accept that bad DMs are as prevalent as bad players. I don't. Really, in my area I didn't see any difference. I ran one 4e campaign but everyone including me as DM hated it. I think for my style and the traditional style of D&D that...

In the case of clerics in D&D, I think they have a deep knowledge of the expectations of their Deity. I wouldn't nitpick minor infractions. That would be covered by an occasional general atonement. I would though warn a cleric as DM if they are about to go off the deep end with their...

If I allowed either class, I'd definitely consider any barbarian becoming lawful as having an impact upon his abilities going forward. I do though think clerics and paladins are the most iconic examples and the most flavorful when it comes to Deity involvement.

Well if he were truly going against his God's tenants, then this is how it would go... 1. When he is about to give mercy, the DM reminds him this is not the will of his God. 2. When he does it anyway, for one such infraction, then perhaps some minor penalty occurs like the loss of a spell. 3...

But the conflict is heightened when they do it and lose some powers. They then have to atone or follow another God. All of that requires some character suffering which is the stuff of great stories. Nothing happening is boring.

Yes and doing so as early as possible. Session 0 if possible.

I agree. I would never use any plot coupon style power in any game I play. If the game has plot coupons, I don't play it or I hack it.

That is the point though. Those classes belong to the Deities faction. They are ambassadors and representatives of the Deity. Of course they are "chastized" by the Deity when they do wrong. I don't see anything but the most extreme bad actions leading to a permanent loss of ability. But...

To the degree they exist they ruin games very quickly. They are easily spotted and avoided. Toxic players on the other hand are often a nagging chronic pain in the DMs side but he soldiers on anyway. That is why we have so much trouble getting DMs. No one wants to put up with all the player...

My 1e PHB and DMG are still fully serviceable. So I don't think it would be that hard to keep your books and use them the rest of your life. Now if those wandering Pinkertons grab them, might I suggest grabbing a digital copy of the rules. I glanced at Black Flag and I agree. I would say...

"we". Some of you. The problem is the game seems to cater to the crowd who can't stand anything bad happening to them. It's why so many rules have been removed and an entire OSR movement has been born in response. Personally, I haven't had many problems with people playing clerics. But I...

As for those who are complaining about the DM screwing with them. If a DM wants to mess with a player, a rule on clerics is not going to save the situation. Just leave that game. But don't misinterpret good DMing that adheres to a world and reflects the game as the DM messing with you.

That would be a world that lacked any sort of verisimilitude for me. It's not that it cannot be done but there needs to be some costs in the transition. I think the stripping out of everything bad that could possibly happen has lessened our game greatly.

And petulant players who want to ignore the setting entirely and just do whatever they want without consequence are toxic crybabies and the ruination of many games. Just go.

For us, I think as soon as you lose verisimilitude for the world the game is done. At that point the players stop believing it's a living breathing working world. And I don't think the fact that items seem to "magically" match what classes the players are playing is something that requires...

I think given D&D's history this is not true for clerics or paladins. Part of playing that class and it's not a secret is adhering to some code or being faithful to a deity. Like anything, the first action by the deity doesn't have to be a total power ban but the idea that clerics and paladins...

I think in fairness the plan is not permanent banning of powers unless the offense is something so obvious the player should have known better and been warned about repeatedly. The idea would be the powers stop working, are lessened (meaning maybe a higher level spell isn't usable), or any...

I think there are many ways to play it and some of you have really given some interesting ideas on how it could work. Definitely fodder for a campaign. But we are talking about the default rule in the DMG. Maybe the DMG should teach their DMs to have a well done session 0 which is a great way...