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So let me do a general overall commentary: Opening Round The party is going against the dragon with 0 prep, no spells cast. That is probably highly unlikely, but this was meant to be a "wing it" test, so I don't mind that. That said, all of them going in super clumped like that against a...

When people are asking "ok so what should the breath weapon of a CR 24 dragon look like?:..... its something like this: Fire Breath: Everything in the area takes X damage (Save Y half), and all magic of 6th level or lower is dispelled similar to dispel magic. A creature that is brought to 0 hp...

Here's another way to put it in context. Take a 5th level party versus a CR12 yuan-ti anathema (which is the same 7 CR higher, and it was the first monster that came up in my list). The 5th level wizard has 32 hp (with the 14 con). The anathema does 67 DPS when all attacks hit, DOUBLE the...

so then what are they supposed to do? just bat around some hitpoints for 3 rounds and then die? Again this is a fight 7 CR higher than the players, if the dragon cannot even drop a PC in a round let alone kill them....than there is no real fight.

To me here's an easy example: Imagine a 17th level wizard with a 14 con has 98 hp. Now you might argue would a wizard always have 14 con, but I would argue that I am not included the myriad of ways this wizard might have buffed up their HP total (Aid, Heroes feast, temp hp from so many options...

Looking forward to seeing what they do with slaad. yeah they are ridiculously codified for how random they are supposed to be. Blatant push for my own version of the slaad: https://www.enworld.org/threads/5e-updates-monstrous-compendium.672508/page-105#post-8275602

i think what you are failing to grasp is… a party is not supposed to fight any monster 10 CR higher than they are. A 20th level party is not supposed to fight the tarrasque straight up, if they do…yes they are supposed to get obliterated, just as a 10th level party fighting a CR 20 legendary...

man this party is SO damn unlucky! But its still a good run, these are the kind of fights that can turn a fight super deadly, and so we will see how the party manages.

if your interested, I took a crack at making a demographic excel several years ago, so you can tweak and see exactly how many people of each class and level you would have for various populations and assumed demographics...

Yep, one of the simplest ways to enforce the "high levle magic is super rare" in a world. And its similar to professional sports in real life. Talent can get you far in sports, hard work can get you far, but to get to the top levels of a sport....you need a lot of both. Same with magic, you can...

Is there any possible way we can take ALL of this commentary into the several other threads about MM monsters and dragons, and leave this thread to the actual test being conducted (both direct commentary/questions and the actual test rsults). It is damn annoying to come in to look at the test...

You are facing a threat a full 10 CRs higher than the party (and the MM has strict warning abouts using monsters higher CR than the party....this is 50% higher). I mean....if that doesn't mean PCs are dropping like flies than what is the point of super high CRs?

Looking at the higher CRs, the creatures are definately tougher (we can argue if they are now "tough enough" but a definite boost). I don't think the normal 5e monster arguments hold up against from CRs 4 and below. Parties below 5th level can be taken out pretty easily, and so I can respect...

keep in mind, taht a wizard can swap some spells on a short rest, not just a long one. So even if they found out in teh dungeon, they still might have some ability to swap a few things out.

yep can see them. Overall they look solid (no magic items correct?), only critique is that the wizard would have different signature spells for this day assuming a dragon fight (probably shield and the resistance 1st level can't think of the name). But yeah not super optimized but perfectly...

a fair point, 5e spell slots are a lot more flexible than 4e powers.

You mean how like legendary resistance means that any spell that has a save is completely worthless

The amount of damage a monster has to do to actually kill a 17th level PC outright is obscene. (And that’s before the variety of effects that can bring them from 0 to 1 hp). Drop them to 0…sure, but actually kill is very difficult.

The forz dragon also has a number of control effects as well, more than the mm gold. Still I do like how the mm gold brings several elements to the table in a more streamlined package, it just might need more damage but the chassis looks reasonable

I do think this is a valid design goal for monsters above CR20 (at least for the weaker hps of the party). I mean getting a PC to 0 isn't all that bad at those levels (lots of ways 0 hp = 1 hp), they have lots of healign to get them back, and again even if they die....a speed bump at that point...