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I haven't seen anyone that wants a Mythic Martial at higher levels that wouldn't be satisfied with an entirely new class called something else AND keeping the existing Fighter as is? No one I've seen is taking that line in the sand? In fact, I think it's preferable to most mythic martial...

I mean the slog part isn't good, but using every trick to win doesn't sound too bad. DM challenging was a little harder at higher levels since there was a lot of ways PCs could find synergy both individually and as a team, but the math was pretty good so you could always raise the numbers and...

Is that all this back and forth was about? You are fine with a Warlord that sometimes directly attacks and that also does a bunch of inspiring, positioning, granting ally attacks, save bolstering etc. But you don't like the idea of a Warlord that never directly attacks but only does the...

He's also has 1) a built in class artifact that rarely gets taken away (shield) 2) a moral/emotional leader 3) brilliant tactician. both 2 and 3 have key value in many "adventures". 4) He also has plot points/narrative contrivance going for him which is a key aspect of balancing...

Yeah, I don't really see it for high level D&D Wizards. The point wasn't that there aren't fantasy wizards that have more power, have more always on spells, etc. The point was that high level D&D wizards have a cocktail of traits you don't see much outside of supers -- reliability, high...

Yes, there are other ways to balance as well but modern D&D has shied away these as class features. Temporal power -- ruling subjects, respect of the common man, etc. but these need to be tied to the stories told. Magic can't get you the true love of the princess but those types of things...

I mean, this is where D&D gets weird IMO. Which is partly why we get all these threads. D&D Wizards have evolved into sort of a comic book character. Most fantasy spellcasters have all kinds of limits. Magic is never as versatile, repeatable, powerful, no cost, etc. as in D&D. You...

At this point, I think keeping all existing classes and adding new martial classes balanced against the Wizard is the right move. Create a new Warlord and Mythic Martial class in an optional splat book. Even say you need DM permission to play it if you want. Have these classes designed by...

The biggest for me is that they made the math worse, which wasn't super strong in 1e either but sort of worked. Specifically they changed most of the modifiers from TN (TN = DC the number you need to hit or higher) to number of dice in dice pool. The issue is that One Ring dice pools are very...

Not always if you are looking for innovation rather than incremental progress. The vast majority of people were very happy with their Blackberries in 2005. No one was really asking for an iphone and I don't think think these kind of popularity surveys would have got them there. Perhaps...

Reduce slots and reduce versatility of utility spells that a single Wizard can take and I think it would work for me. So combat stuff + one of the following groupings of utility spells: 1) travel/mobility 2) social / mind control 3) divination 4) stealth/infiltration 5) any others?

Yep, almost all magic systems in fantasy fiction have more constraints. D&D magic is reliable, plentiful, low cost, versatile, and powerful. Not even D&D fiction depicts it this way. I may be wrong since it's been a while since I read Dying Earth but I remember people memorizing like 4...

Agreed. This is very common in martial / spellcasting threads unfortunately. The reason these narrative abilities often come up is that the traditional mechanics don't do a great job of emulating many martially things in genre that should be possible. Narrative abilities are one way...

Yeah, I mean for D&D I guess you could put a caveat that says "The DM might judge that the ability is not usable in certain circumstances". That would still open up more design space than today, and I imagine there would be some incentive for the DM to try and make these abilities work if it...

This is perhaps the missing ingredient. Given the breadth, power, reliability, ease of use, etc. of D&D magic, then narrative power could be a way for martial abilities to bridge the gap a little. You can give this narrative power to the DM if you want to make things a bit more traditional...

I haven't heard anyone saying every class should be able to do exactly the same things. The idea is that the game should support all classes with decent character abilities that can have impact on some noncombat challenges. Character abilities not just player ability to generate ideas and...

To some extent this is true, in that it did not seem to evolve the good parts of 4e into something better. Refine Rituals so they are a more integrated part of the game by giving a few free rituals per day to traditional full casters and automatic rituals known per level? Nope, let's just...

And I don't think Mike should be singled out here. I never got the impression that WotC fully understood exactly what they created and how it should best be used. Adventure design is one the ways this shows. Although later adventures were slightly better than KotS, none of WotC ones...

I don't think this would tell us if it would be a good/popular addition to the game either way. It's like the Fighter / mythic martial arguments. It could be true that most people don't want it enough. But it also could be true that a huge swath of players and DMs just buy the core books...

The point remains that any other player can also do this, but some players can do this idea generation and get mechanical ways for their character to contribute to the execution as well and some don't. Why is this? Combat has 2 parameters: 1) player skill input on what to do (idea)- where to...