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Prety much this, and also much of the jokes came from rather, uh, backwards sensibilities ...

This show is so repulsive to me that I can't even hate-watch it.

You're doing damage either way. And doing a better job of it than the martial class is, and the martial class' only real job is to do damage. It absolutely is a fair comparison.

If immediate damage is more your concern, then the Cleric has some lovely spells like Inflict X Wounds (vs. touch AC!), Spiritual Weapon and Shatter. Bottom line, anything the Fighter, or Paladin, or any martial can do, the Cleric has a better answer for it.

Yeah, like when the combat starts and the enemy isn't within range for the Cleric to make a full attack action. That's a pretty common condition. A Divine Favor or, later, Divine Power in the 1st round will be more beneficial than moving more than a 5-foot step and making one measly attack.

Except when it's been demonstrated countless times that the Cleric can do what the Fighter does, better than the Fighter does, they absolutely are comparable. This makes no sense.

I'm hardly the first or the only one who noticed the Cleric is broken. CoDzilla has been a thing for more than 15 years. Also in the instances it's not optimal for the Cleric to get off a melee buff in the first round, the same Cleric most likely has something else good it can cast. That's a...

And yet you're the one who put conditionals on the Cleric's buffing ability in your anecdote. FYI, Divine Favor alone is one 1st-level spell that already tended to even up or even propel Clerics above martial classes in melee combat at the early levels. And then a 7th-level Cleric only needed a...

Good riddance.

Good for you. That's your anecdotal evidence against everyone else's. Mine, and so many others', has the Cleric being in the worst case an able replacement for a martial and in the best case putting a martial to shame at its own game.

No, you're not. You are being intellectually dishonest. And yet you casually ignore the many times I have put those "toxic" classes into parties where they are much less likely to be toxic. No. You strawmanned my argument. I argued that a "toxic" class, as you put it, can still be mechanically...

You're literally saying a class doesn't suck when everyone else in the party sucks. And you have no idea how utterly ridiculous that sounds. Again, a class becomes relevant only when everyone else is lower tier or sucks. You're really not making a good case here.

The Bard (Tier 3) is better at spellcasting, skills, social situations, and exploration. And combat, too. The Ranger (Tier 4) is better at skills, exploration, and combat, and even arguably spellcasting. The Rogue (Tier 4) is better at skills, social situations, and exploration, and even...

Because the class that can create tension with certain parties can possibly still perform effectively in a party where there isn't that tension. The mechanically weak class, OTOH, is always mechanically weak, regardless of what the rest of the party is. I can make a strong case for playing an...

My problem with Oath of Treachery is that it was actually called an Oath. It should've just been a Blackguard and gone from there. Oathbreaker to me is a Paladin who willfully and knowingly violated their Oath and decided to go full evil. Blackguard, on the other hand, would be cool if...

Which then begs the question: Why not a Cleric, who can do all of that better and a whole lot more? You have a class who is clearly inferior in combat to the Fighter and clearly inferior in both combat and utility to the Cleric. The 3.5 Paladin had no reason to exist.

The Undead Warlock is basically a non-crap version of the Undying. It's ... OK. College of Spirits is interesting, but I don't like that Tales from Beyond takes both your bonus action and your action. Terrible for action economy. I feel like the Bardic Inspiration spending part of it should...

Most of 5e's player base sure has.

A Fighter with all its bonus feats could take the save-boosting feats that other classes wouldn't touch and match the Paladin in that category, while still able to grab all the combat feats it wanted. 3.5 Paladins didn't have much out-of-combat utility. Their narrow spell list didn't do much...

Aside from the one case of an early Vampire class that never saw publication, Vampire was a race or a race template. And it always worked better in D&D as a template, because it allowed flexibility in what a vampire could be. Some vampires in D&Ds other than 4e were fighters, others mages, and...