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IMO. They all run into issues. Many of which are gameplay issues. But yes theoretically you can use another. I’m not theoretically as opposed to a consistent system that doesn’t face the transition issues @Enrahim brought up. But trying to switch between 1 and the other seems quite off for sim.

Yea. It’s the transitions that really highlight the minion concerns from a sim perspective.

Is your point that one of those particular methods should be preferred because I have objections to each. Or is your point that there must exist some concrete method for this that allows minions while alleviating all concerns, because I don’t think this state actually exists. So I’m really...

Sometimes there’s just not a particularly better alternative so you live with what you’ve got.

Don’t the normal stat blocks do that better? Like I don’t have a particular issue with minions from a gameplay perspective, but they do seem to crap all over the sim perspective. In fact they probably make better gameplay. I was definitely more concerned with gamism back when 4e was...

My play typically consists of a world map. NPCs and factions are often linked to specific locations on the map. However, their location can be updated, so it’s not static. And this updating can occur without PC intervention. But more importantly NPCs and factions have principles and goals...

Okay. I thought the +2 would have given it away, but fair enough. Mattering more meaning the fictional action in the specific fictional situation will produce a more appropriate effect. This does rely on an assumption that fiction is generated in a specific principled way such that fiction...

Thank you. Up until very recently in this thread I had thought that framing scenes based on hidden backstory was part of map and key play. But sure I’ll try to elaborate. Some I think have covered many alternatives fairly well.

Im clearly talking the mechanical impacts. Did I misunderstand you earlier when you said it would mechanically grant a +2? Or was that intended as a single possible example instead of an example illustrative of the important bits of the definition. We have repeatedly. I will one more time...

The pedantry is acting like the former doesn’t imply the later ‘A lot of thinking and discussion about the play of RPGs seems to default to an assumption of map-and-key play.’ Vs ‘the play of RPGs seems to default to an assumption of map-and-key play’. Why in the heavens would you think that a...

Actually never mind. I don’t feel like dealing with the obvious pedantry today.

For what it’s worth, the specific implementation here seems far superior to how I understand 4e skill challenges. Here’s a question. What if the players had combined 2 or 3 or 4 or all of the counter arguments into their first counter argument? How would that have been handled?

the more broadly you want to define skill challenge the more case based the criticisms of it are going to be. 4e skill challenges were specifically brought up and so that’s what I’ve been discussing. If you want to discuss some other variation of them, expect the pros, cons and criticisms of...

I think social skill challenges in certain social situations can make sense. Primarily ones where the NPC motivations and reasoning aren’t very established in the shared fiction or notes so the DM has little to extrapolate from. Much lower myth than how I’d typically run an important faction of...

I’m not sure what you mean here. My understanding is that the 4e skill challenges rules do not allow this. I would be more open to a skill challenges system that did, though it would have to also be able to be adjusted for the fiction (the position and effect to borrow BitD lingo) and not...

Maybe if you directly addressed the criticism, because I don’t follow the significance of whatever point you are trying to make here. The criticism is that the default pre-skill challenge method of resolution is more responsive to the fiction than skill challenges. This is because the number...

I’ve gotten that vibe before about my play as well, but it’s usually quickly dismissed Why though? If the premise is this band of adventurers travel together and we are finding out about their deeds then surely adventures and parties are part of the situation and characters that should be...

In the very first line of your OP you go much further than identifying a fairly well known method, you say most play defaults on an assumption of map and key play. So seriously…?

I guess my interest here is that my play often gets described as map and key and while I can’t say it’s devoid of maps and keys they are more tertiary or maybe layered with other more important play concepts. Sometimes it comes across that d&d is primarily map and key, and yet some of my most...

The notion that there is some finish line and progress bar eludes me. The constraints on the DMs narration are the fiction, including unrevealed backstory if any and the unspoken guiding principle that the possible narrations should be trimmed down to only the most plausible ones (assuming they...