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I really like Shadowdark. I found it fresh and inspiring enough to have published some adventures for it and done a bunch of design and coversion stuff for it (primarily from Troika's Acid Death Fantasy and a mega dungeon called Ave Nox). It a ton of fun.

Read this way it also doesn't sound much like invisibility. So there's that.

More playtest games this weekend, Saturday and/or Sunday, at people's convenience. In the late afternoon/evening EST.

Brendan makes great games. Everyone should own them.

I'm running a play test game tomorrow if anyone is interested.

I don't think this is really a topic that adimts of a easy binary solution set.

That's so interesting. I'be been playing RPGs for a long time and i've played a lot of different games and this has never even come up as an idea. Great evidence that people in different places and groups do things very differently.

Believing that the NPC is saying something they belive to be true isn't the same as the PC being required to also belive that same thing. Those are good examples though. I've not played Marvel heroic, but I should have remembered that Luke Crane would be that guy. It's still not the case that...

Hah. I've got 5000 words done for Bastion Station. I also have a Vac Suits Dark version finished that just needs some playtesting and it'll be ready to publish. The hype rolls on! Edit - I am going to look into PoD, but don't expect it right away.

Yeah, but that leads us back to expected adjudication. Player actions in D&D have a declared outcome, DM actions don't in the same way. I was looking for an example that was different.

I tell you what, I don't want to argue at cross purposes so perhaps you could provide an example of a game where something like a decieve roll in any way forces responses on a player, as per the examples we've been noodling about above. This isn't a passive agresssive thing, I'm just not sure...

I get that, but the basic idea of decieve as a skill rolled on a d20 applies pretty evenly to games that use that kind of mechanic (and have a decieve skill.

Because the DM doesn't get roll to decieve to have the PC let him past and then adjudicate his own roll. I've never in my life seen skill rolls played that way, although I suppose that people do. It's the second bit, the let him past, that isn't a usual part of the player facing skill roll...

I'm not even sure how'd you'd manage that. When a player declares an SI interaction there's a bit about expected outcome - so I'm going to decieve the guard into thinking I'm a castle page so he'll let me into the castle. You don't get the expected outcome with skill checks related to PCs. They...

Oh yeah, no doubt. That's not the same as saying that those ten individual styles are equaly informed by the actual rules or a deep well of DM experience however. That's not really a judgement of those (hypothetical) styles per se, just a fact levened by my own experience, perferences, and...

I don't think you can apply the same rules to NPC and PCs in any kind of useful way for social interaction. An interesting difference of opion! Free roleplay does work, and my favorite systems treat social interaction with a light touch. I dislike crunchy SI mechanics.

Yeah, I voted for Dolmenwood, Discworld, and The Between, but Broken Empires, Laundry 2E, Mythic Bastionland, Coriolis, Cairn, and Ashes Without Number are all really exciting too.

I think you're misinterpreting what a successful decieve roll actually means as it applies to a player. All it means is that the player, and thus the character, thinks the NPC is telling the truth. There's absolutely nothing that compels the player to believe that the statement is true or...

I wouldn't worry too much about it. All us armchair generals have our hot topic items. :)

I don't see how this is true of older games versus newer games. I don't disagree that there are more people talking about rules and digging into what they mean now (like, internet now), but that's all armchair philosophy. It doesn't change rules nor does it force anyone to change how they play...